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And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.“

Worship (“worthy-ship”) is best interpreted as “give esteem”. We give adoration, latria, to God alone, we give veneration, dulia, worship, to the Saints–I have seen a stained glass window of John Calvin in Westminster Presbyterian by the California State Capitol–and we give extreme veneration, hyperdulia, to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the creature of God of greater dignity and holiness than all others, angels or men.

Iconoclasts blur these distinctions between the several gradations of piety, despite Adonai’s command to hear Him from between the images of angels on the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:22), and Adonai’s command (Numbers 21:6-9) to set up brass serpents on a pole to be viewed by the people for a cure from the plague punishment for their faithlessness, to which Jesus seems to be referring about Himself in John 12:32 when He says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.”.

Most people who feel scruples that our attention to Mary should not detract from the glory of Jesus, take no account, that it is His own will that we begin our efforts at properly humbling ourselves before Him, by first humbling ourselves to her.

Click the ▶ Button to sing the prayer (key for Women), or play the song in a New Window ⧉
http://www.sing-prayer.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/MotherOfMercyDayByDay.mp3

Click the ▶ Button to sing the prayer (key for Men), or play the song in a New Window ⧉
http://sing-prayer.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/MotherOfMercyDayByDay-NewPiano-C.mp3

Mother of Mercy, Day by Day
Fr. Frederick W. Faber, 1851	Traditional Melody, Catholic Church Hymnal with Music‎, 1905, p. 171
1. Mother of Mercy, day by day My love of thee grows more and more; Thy gifts are strewn upon my way, Like sands upon the great seashore; Like sands upon the great seashore.	2. Though poverty and work and woe The masters of my life may be, When times are worst, who does not know, Darkness is light with love of thee? Darkness is light with love of thee?
3. But scornful men have coldly said Thy love was leading me from God; And yet in this I did but tread, The very path my Saviour trod; The very path my Saviour trod.	4. They know but little of thy worth Who speak these heartless words of thee; For what did Jesus love on earth, One half so tenderly as thee? One half so tenderly as thee?
5. Get me the grace to love thee more; Jesus will give if thou wilt plead; And, Mother, when life’s cares are o’er, Oh, I shall love thee then indeed; Oh, I shall love thee then indeed.	6. Jesus, when His three hours were run, Bequeathed thee from the Cross to me; And Oh, how can I love thy Son, Sweet Mother, if I love not thee? Sweet Mother, if I love not thee?

So is this a protected caucus thread for catholics, or are we allowed to dismantle these heresies?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Here’s the more exact date.

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel’s ceiling between 1508 and 1512. That included many unchaste pictures, God’s unclothed bottom being the worst of all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel_ceiling#Creation

And more generally:

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” Revelation 12:10

With all that is going on in the world today you somehow thought this was a good idea to post. It’s just another attack on the “body of Christ”.

I find it very offensive that those who claim to know our Lord, continue in their assault against this body of believers because we don’t wish to follow the so-called “Mother Church”.

Reminds me of the millstone passage for some reason.

Oh, we don’t worship Mary, we “venerate” her.

"Worship (“worthy-ship”) is best interpreted as “give esteem”. We give adoration, latria, to God alone, we give veneration, dulia, worship, t"

Another fabrication. "Latria" is not the only word used for worship, and which is defined by more than just words, One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Which manner of "adulation" could constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT (http://peacebyjesus.net/words_used_for_worship.html), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship. The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “

was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary)

Yet as expected, the Catholic Encyclopedia imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead the NT shows that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine (http://peacebyjesus.net/deityofchrist.html) Christ, (Heb. 10:19 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb.%2010.19)), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb.%202.17),18 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb%202.18); 4:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb%204.15),16 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb%204.16)) To the glory of God

"Jesus Humbled Himself to Mary for Our Example - Satan Said "I Will Not Serve""

The cultic author of this is Mariolatry is night unto blasphemy. Let's get the Facts right: While Mary is a holy, virtuous instrument of God, as were the writers of Holy Writ thru whom God gave His pure life-giving words - Mary was created by God, the Father thru the Divine Son of God by the Spirit, and as God Mary was not only given her own body but also that by which the Son would be incarnated. Thus in contrast to Catholics who claim that Jesus "owes" His own blood to Mary, Mary owes everything to God, including the Son who used her for His incarnation. As for subjection as a incarnated child, that was not simply to Mary but to both parents, (Luke 2:51) as well as to human nature, by His own choice.

And yet in all things, Christ's subjection to anything resulting from His incarnation in the form of a servant was itself in subjection to His Father's will. Which He reminded Mary of when she meekly sought Him to fill a need for wine in the wedding at Cana (being not obligated to meet her request, as a study of the phrase "what have I to do with thee" in Scripture testifies to). And thus she had to wait for Him to finish speaking before He went to her who wanted to speak with Him (if He went at all, for that is not evemn recorded.

Thus the real Mary of Scripture, in contrast with the Catholic contrivance of her, was subject to God and as the Son of God, but which reminder the author here blasphemously insinuates is satanic rebellion, being a refusal to basically worship the Mary.of Catholicism. To whom Catholics think far above that which is written, (contra 1 Co. 4:6) ascribing such laudatory lies as that,

...in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary; she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified; The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited; surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven; At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent; Virgin most powerful; the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived; all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin...she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will; when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him".. through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts; there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose;" above the Cherubim and higher than the Seraphim, right near God Himself!; Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory...Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it; sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus; No one achieves salvation except through you...No one receives grace except through you; Thou are all-powerful in saving sinners; Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God; Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation; through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary; in Heaven we have but one advocate, and that is Thyself; and that Thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our welfare; .you love us with a love that no other love can surpass. How often you appease the wrath of our Divine Judge, when He is on the point of punishing us! All the treasures of the mercy of God are in your hands; she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins; We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman; to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...

Sources and more.

"Here Newman correctly sees the relationship of Protestant denigration of Mary with the modern liberal movements of his day, which also included feminism and Marxism, as we shall see. By removing the cult of Mary from Christian life, the Protestants were able to reintroduce the contest of power into the heart of every Christian family and every Christian soul. By removing Mary as the channel of the Incarnation, they could remove the living authority of the Church and that of Christ, which would then lead directly to the complete removal of the authority of Christ the King from all society."

The author is either ignorant or a willful prevaricating polemicist. Mary is actually used by feminism and Catholic hyper-exaltation of her support this by making Christ subject to her even now, while liberalism is a rebellion against historical Protestantism in which Scripture was the sure supreme standard for Truth, and thus the authority of Christ the King in all society.

But which exaltation of holy Writ does mean rejection of the spiritual dead authority of the Catholic Church as the papacy is just one of the distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.“ "

Even of your own bible and teachers you have correction of this vain imagination:

The RC NAB Bible and The New Catholic Answer Bible commentary and certain other RC sources do not make the women of Rv. 12 to be Mary:

The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12...Because of Eve's sin, the woman gives birth in distress and pain. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM

Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):

a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.

In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

Roman Catholic theologian Father Hubert J. Richards agrees that the Revelation 12 woman refers to Israel. His book, What The Spirit Says to the Churches: A Key to the Apocalypse of John, carries the Nihil obstat and Imprimatur of the Roman Catholic Church.13 Concerning the woman of Revelation 12, Father Richards writes:

The vision proper, then, begins with the figure of a Woman clothed with the sun and the stars. We think naturally enough of our Lady, to whom this description has traditionally been applied. After all, we say, of whom else could John be thinking when he speaks of the mother of the Messiah? However it is clear from the rest of the chapter that this interpretation will stand only if the verse is isolated: what follows has very little relevance to our Lady. Nor is it any honor to Mary to apply any and every text to her without thought....

Who then is she? The source to which John has turned for his imagery throughout this book is the Old Testament. There, the Woman, the bride of God who brings forth the Messiah, is Israel, the true Israel, the chosen people of God. It is quite certain that this is what is in John's mind when he begins his description with a quotation from Gen. 37:9-10, where the sun and moon and twelve stars represent the twelve-fold Israel.

This Woman will later be contrasted with the Harlot (the collective personality of Rome, opposed to the true Israel), and will be specified at the end of the book, again appearing in light and splendour for her marriage with the Lamb, as the twelve-gated Jerusalem which forms the new Israel. In fact the number twelve occurs so frequently in the Apocalypse in reference to Israel that it cannot have a different meaning here. All the early Fathers of the Church interpreted these verses as about the Israel of God.14 See http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Revelation12Woman.pdf

" We give adoration, latria, to God alone, we give veneration, dulia, worship, to the Saints"

Actually as said, worship is defined as described by more than one word, and while Catholics argue that they do not worship their Mary because they do not use the word latria for it, they actually engage in ascribing uniquely Divine attributes and glory to Mary, and such use of ascriptions is part of the evidences of the deity of Christ.

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;
As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;
As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
As the Holy Spirit directs believers to be "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) in whom believes are accounted a holy nation, (1 Pt. 2:9) so Catholicism teaches that believers are to "turn their eyes to Mary" in whom "the Church is already the 'all-holy." (CCC 829)
As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);
As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."
As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
As no one can obtain mercy, be saved/redeemed or be delivered and know the Father but through the Son, so the same is said of Mary;
As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.
As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;
As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."
As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."
As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.
As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.
And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;
as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;
as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;
as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.
As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)

The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Yet, as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God

“But for women, the denigration of the Mother of God led directly for their degradation as women.”

Wow. Talk about a left-handed, nonsensical article.

I am a Protestant and have never in my life heard or read anything that denigrated Mary. I was always taught she was an awesome person.

However, according to the writers of scripture, she stands at the foot of the cross as a supplicant as we all must. Saying that does not denigrate Mary or women in general.

Worship (“worthy-ship”) is best interpreted as “give esteem”. We give adoration, latria, to God alone, we give veneration, dulia, worship, to the Saints–I have seen a stained glass window of John Calvin in Westminster Presbyterian by the California State Capitol–and we give extreme veneration, hyperdulia, to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the creature of God of greater dignity and holiness than all others, angels or men.

Semantic hair splitting.

Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

No bowing down to images means no bowing down to images. Catholics can claim all they want about how they don’t “worship” Mary, but putting a statue of her in their church and bowing down in prayer and lighting candles to it is violating the second commandment, whatever they want to relabel it as.

God condemned the actions of the Jews towards what they called the queen of heaven.

Jeremiah 7:18 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead the dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to offer libations to strange gods, and to provoke me to anger. (Douay- Rheims)

Since when did God say that it was OK to introduce her back into religion?

It’s not how people view Mary that is the problem, it’s about their concept of Jesus. HE takes preeminence.

"Jesus Humbled Himself to Mary for Our Example - Satan Said "I Will Not Serve""

Satan essentially said, "I will make an instrument of God itself an object of worship, since (as I contend) instruments should also be worshipped.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men? (Jeremiah 44:16-19)

Mary created by Christ (the Father thru the Son by the Spirit):

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Colossians 1:16)

Mary owes all to God:

for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee. (1 Chronicles 29:14)

what hast thou that thou didst not receive? (1 Corinthians 4:7)

A body was prepared for Christ:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Hebrews 10:5)

Christ was subject as a child to both parents, and to biological nature, by choice of obedience to His Father:

And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. (Luke 2:51)

For verily he took not on him [the nature of ]angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:16,17)

But in all things the Son was in subject to His Father and His will, over that of Mary and anyone else:

"And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:3-4)"

As said, a study of the response "what have i to do with thee" testifies to this meaning the that the object of entreaty is under no compulsion to accede to the request. (2Sam. 16:9;10; 19:22; 1Kg. 17:18; 2Kg. 3:13; 2Chr. 35:21;Lk. 4:34; 8:28; cf. 1Cor. 5:12) And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab. (2 Kings 3:13)

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:46-50)

" But for women, the denigration of the Mother of God led directly for their degradation as women. Just as the exaltation of Mary had led to the glory of woman in her “truly regal throne,” the removal of Mary caused the removal of the duty to honor women....immediately — and predictably — a wholesale impure license was unleashed by the Protestant men."

I never knew that the Reformation was the work of one day or two, and that the likes of Focus on the Family (and multitudes of evangelical; books on marriage) under Dobson was a Catholic ministry. And Catholicism unScripturally forbid marriage to the clergy (with rare exceptions).

As a conservative, Bible-based Protestant, here is what Mary means to me:

I see a woman, who was filled with original sin just as we all are, and who worshipped God as taught by Hebrew law and tradition handed down by God through Abraham and his descendants. When God sent his angel messenger to tell her what God had planned for her and the role she would play in His great plan for redemption for His people, she humbly obeyed, she put aside her fear, her own plans, and faithfully, unquestionably trusted God. She was special in that God chose her to help carry out His great plan, in part because her blood lineage was pure and a direct descendant from Abraham which was necessary to His plan.

Mary is not a deity (like God is). I do not worship her, nor do pray to her. No where in the Bible (God’s Holy Word) do I see anything that tells me to direct prayers to her (or to any Saints).

However, I highly admire her and look to her as a wonderful example of Christian womanhood. Although she was born human and sinful as we all are, she is washed clean of all sin through the sacrificial blood of Christ which is offered to us all as believers. I try to follow her beautiful example of obedience to God, though I have not yet been able to reach her ability. One day I hope to be able to stand with her in heaven and humbly thank her for being a great part of the “light and salt” that helped guide me in my Christian path.

"But because they still gave reverence to Mary, the basic structure of the living authority in the bishop remained intact. A humility toward human authority in Mary helped maintain the same toward the bishop. This also safeguarded the glory of femininity for their women, who could still ascend to the “truly regal throne” as well as become consecrated virgins. "

Meaning that the “truly regal throne” was to not marry and engage in defiling relations, but to be a vestal virgin, which flowed from men no less then Jerome, etc..

While Catholicism does not consider itself bound to believe all that those she deems to be church fathers taught, here I will briefly document the views of a primary church "father, Jerome on virginity versus marriage, and statements of Augustine and Tertullian that relate to this which influenced the unscriptural Catholic position on required clerical celibacy (see last section on this page, by the grace of God.).

Jerome saw marriage as so inferior (at the least) to virginity, celibacy and continence, that he engaged in specious reasoning and abused Scripture to support his imbalanced views, teaching,

If ‘it is good for a man not to touch a woman,’ then it is bad for him to touch one, for bad, and bad only, is the opposite of good. (''Letter'' 22).

In "Against Jovinianus," book 1, on First Corinthians 7 he again perversely reasons,

“It is good,” he says, “for a man not to touch a woman.” If it is good not to touch a woman, it is bad to touch one: for there is no opposite to goodness but badness. But if it be bad and the evil is pardoned, the reason for the concession is to prevent worse evil. But surely a thing which is only allowed because there may be something worse has only a slight degree of goodness...

Just as though one were to lay it down: “It is good to feed on wheaten bread, and to eat the finest wheat flour,” and yet to prevent a person pressed by hunger from devouring cow-dung, I may allow him to eat barley. Does it follow that the wheat will not have its peculiar purity, because such an one prefers barley to excrement?..

If we abstain from intercourse, we give honour to our wives: if we do not abstain, it is clear that insult is the opposite of honour.

Then we have another false dilemma:

"If we are to pray always, it follows that we must never be in the bondage of wedlock, for as often as I render my wife her due, I cannot pray.

And then there is this wresting of Scripture to serve his purpose:

This too we must observe, at least if we would faithfully follow the Hebrew, that while Scripture on the first, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth days relates that, having finished the works of each, “God saw that it was good,” on the second day it omitted this altogether, leaving us to understand that two is not a good number because it destroys unity, and prefigures the marriage compact. Hence it was that all the animals which Noah took into the ark by pairs were unclean. Odd numbers denote cleanness. And yet by the double number is represented another mystery: that not even in beasts and unclean birds is second marriage approved.

So much for 2 x 2 evangelism, while "if we would faithfully follow the Hebrew" we see that "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31)

Jerome further vainly attempts to make Genesis support him in asserting:

The command to increase and multiply first finds fulfilment after the expulsion from paradise, after the nakedness and the fig-leaves which speak of sexual passion. (St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus Book 1 https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.vi.I.html)

Yet besides the fact that nowhere are the fig-leaves shown to speak of sexual passion, the command to increase and multiply came before the Fall and its later fulfillment:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27-28)

Then we have Augustine who taught that one cannot engage in marital relations without sinful lust:

the very embrace which is lawful and honourable cannot be effected without the ardour of lust, so as to be able to accomplish that which appertains to the use of reason and not of lust....This is the carnal concupiscence, which, while it is no longer accounted sin in the regenerate, yet in no case happens to nature except from sin. — On Marriage and Concupiscence (Book I, cp. 27); http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm

For the belief was, as Harding (below) holds, "before they sinned, Adam and Eve had perfect command of their passions (reproductive actions]." But having lost that due to the Fall, then men as Augustine held that martial relations must involve carnal sinful lust, and even interprets Heb. 13:4 which states that the marriage bed is undefiled (unlike under the Law) to simply mean if it is free from adultery!

However, the idea that martial relations must be that of lust (though it often can be) due to it providing pleasure is not correct, else all that provides pleasure must be consider iniquitous. And as per the logic that a function which at the last is uncontrollable is sinful, perhaps another daily bodily function of relief which can uncontrollable (if you cannot find a bathroom) is also sin.

Then we have Tertullian who argued that second marriage, having been freed from the first by death, "will have to be termed no other than a species of fornication," partly based on the reasoning that such involves desiring to marry a women out of sexual ardor. An Exhortation to Chastity,'' Chapter IX.—Second Marriage a Species of Adultery, Marriage Itself Impugned, as Akin to Adultery, ANF, v. 4, p. 84.]

Also regarding some strange views on the issue of Adam and Eve and sexual relations, RC priest John A. Hardon, S.J stated,

"some of the Fathers [as Athanasius and John Damascene] were so firmly persuaded of the natural integrity of our first parents that they derived marriage from original sin." (Harding: http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm)

For as "John of Damascus" wrote,

In Paradise virginity held sway. Indeed, Divine Scripture tells that both Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed416 . But after their transgression they knew that they were naked, and in their shame they sewed aprons for themselves417 . And when, after the transgression, Adam heard, dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return418 , when death entered into the world by reason of the transgression, then Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare seed419 . So that to prevent the wearing out and destruction of the race by death, marriage was devised that the race of men may be preserved through the procreation of children420.

...God, Who knoweth all things before they have existence, knowing in His foreknowledge that they would fall into transgression in the future and be condemned to death, anticipated this and made “male and female,” and bade them “be fruitful and multiply.” — John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, Chapter XXIV; http://www.trueorthodoxy.info/cat_stjohndamascus_exact_exposition_Orthodox_Faith_bk04.s

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However, as shown before, the command to be"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it" (Genesis 1:28) was given in paradise before the Fall. And nowhere is it even inferred that the sin of Adam and Eve was that of having sexual relations.

And while abstaining from any pleasure out of faith and love for God and service to Him will be rewarded, including continent celibacy, and which indeed has its advantages in focused spiritual endeavor as 1 Co. 7 teaches, yet the ancients cited above go beyond what Scripture teaches in promoting celibacy.

1 Co. 7 teaches that in general the solution to fornication is to marry, and in which the bodies of the man and wife belong to each other, and commands marital relations in the context of avoiding sin. (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)

However, the apostle counsels a man not to seek a wife and to choose celibacy if he has that gift (v. 7, which I think has much to do with self-control) and a father to choose that for his daughter in his home, unless burning with desire for a man feeling likewise. (vs. 8,9)

And the apostle moreover urges Christians to be temperate in business with this world and (using hyperbole) that "they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not." (1 Corinthians 7:29-31)

And while this focus is to apply thru all time, yet as Paul prefaces this exhortation with"the time is short" (1 Corinthians 7:29) then I think he was prophetically, even if unknowingly, preparing the people for the dramatic stresses and changes resulting from the destruction of the temple that would occur in 70AD.

However, Scripture simply does not support the manner of denigration of martial relations and the married as second-class citizens they way men as Jerome did beginning with Genesis.

And besides the reality that nowhere in the New Testament are there any Catholic priests, required clerical celibacy is not what Scripture teaches. The norm for both apostles and pastors was to be married. All but Paul and Barabas were married, and they had freedom to take a wife, versus being under a vow of celibacy. 1 Corinthians 9:1-5)

And the requirements for pastors shows that the norm was such were married, with being a father providing positive credentials for being a pastor, being "the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:2-5) Likewise it was expected that deacons be married. (v. 11)

And as referenced before, celibacy is a gift that not all have, and to require almost all (Rome makes exceptions for some married ordained converts) clergy to have that gift is a unscriptural and foolish presumption.

Are y’all hecking serious?

Articles and threads like these are one big reason people say that Catholics worship Mary.