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To: Cronos
1. the work of al-Ghazali destroying the scientific questioning in the Islamic world

2. Hulagu Khan who destroyed Baghdad and the Caliphate, ending the triumphalism of Islam

3. the reconquista again giving a moral blow to Islam

4. the Marathas conquering the Gurkhani (i.e. the “Mughal”) empire.

Those are certainly important items. But Islam came very close to conquering Christendom several times. We might add the various revolts against the Islamic Khan in what is now Russia, which finally succeeded in 1380.

It wasn't until Europe (Christendom) developed science and technology Islam could not match, that the Muslim threat was actually contained, then placed on a serious defensive position, then relegated to third class status with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.

Nearly all the tech which Christendom developed to defeat Islam passed through the Umma to Europe and Christendom. The Chinese and the Islamics both had first and second chances to develop it and use it and gain final advantage over Christendom.

They either chose not to develop it or could not develop it.

I put the reconquista right at the beginning of the modern era.

That is how I see it; but I do not claim to be a scholar of the conflicts between Islam and Christianity. I have only read some articles and a book or two.

22 posted on 12/06/2021 1:58:34 PM PST by marktwain (Amazing people can read a persons entire personality and character from one photograph.)
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To: marktwain
But there are a few problems with your assumptions

1. Europe (Christendom) vs Islam and Chinese --> this one is the most egregious. We in the west (and me at one point as well) do this most often that we completely forget about the ancient Church of the East - the Church in Ctesiphon-Seleucia. This, the Assyrian Church, had adherents as far away as Mongolia. The Uyghurs were Christians first, as was the wife of Genghis Khan and the wife of Hulagu Khan

2. tech passed through the Umma -- this is the story that many non-historians use to portray a "golden age of Islam" when Islam supposedly preserved the ancient works while Europe was barbaric. This is false:
a. the ones who copied the ancient texts in the Islamic world were near unanimously Christians and some Zoroastrians. Not Muslims
b. The Christian world also included the Roman empire - which still continued until 1453, we forget about that
c. Even west of Croatia, the "dark ages" were only from 450 to 800 in France, were barely from 453 to 640 in Italy and hardly touched Spain before the Muslim conquests.

Both the terms "dark ages" and "byzantine empire" were created by German scholars in the 1800s as a way of disparaging everything that came before themselves.

26 posted on 12/08/2021 6:39:38 AM PST by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
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