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To: marktwain
You are putting your words in my text. - I definitely did. I apologize

For point #1 I wanted to point out that Christianity should not be considered a European only or even European mainly religion

The reason I emphasise on that is because of the wealth of history and knowledge in the Church of the East

#2 The tech did pass through the Umma from various places to Europe -- and that's where I disagree with you. In what I've seen, the level of that is exaggerated - a lot of what "the West" got was not from or through the umma, but either internally or from Christian sources in Constantinople and from the Church of the east

My central thesis is both the Chinese and Islam had a chance to develop the technologies that Christendom developed to conquer them before Christendom did. The Chinese and Muslim civilizations (we can add India if you like) were conquered because they were unable or unwilling to develop modern technology, mostly because their religion/political organization were unable or unwilling to do so. -- That, I agree with.

28 posted on 12/09/2021 4:47:15 AM PST by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
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To: Cronos
For point #1 I wanted to point out that Christianity should not be considered a European only or even European mainly religion

Apology accepted. I do not disagree with you on where Christianity is today.

But at the time of the beginning of the modern era (about 1450), Europe was the overwhelming last redoubt of Christendom under siege by Islam. Sure, there were Christians in Ethiopia. There were some in India, I think. There were quite a few under the despotic control of Islam. There were Christian kingdoms in Russian Asia.

The tools the Modern era is built on, the compass, reliable ocean crossing sailing vessels, paper, printing, gunpowder, mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy.

All of those, or precursors, were available to Islam, China, India, elsewhere before they became well known and used in Christendom. They may even have been independently discovered or re-discovered in Europe. Europe independently developed their own sailing ships, in my opinion. But gunpowder, for example, clearly was known in China, long before Europe. Paper was developed in China. China had printing blocks, but never developed the printing press. Algebra was developed in India, I recall. The Chinese had ocean crossing vessels a bit before Europeans, but destroyed them. Most of those technologies moved from the East, through Islamic controlled lands, to Europe.

But I think we agree on that.

Off hand, I cannot think of any significant technology developed by Islam.

Perhaps you can give me an example or two.

29 posted on 12/09/2021 5:22:01 AM PST by marktwain (Amazing people can read a persons entire personality and character from one photograph.)
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