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To: MurphsLaw

[[ What sense or reason or purpose would it be then for Christ to think sin was so inconsequential.. ]]

sins aren’t inconsequential you missed the point. Sinsmare fogotten by christ. There is therefore now “No condemnation” to those who are saved. So no, snow,isn’t burying a turd as you suggest. We are washed white as snow. We are pure through christ.

We also,aren’t “buried under snow” we are washed completely clean and are figurative “white as snow”

Once again we see the importance of understanding the verses we read. The hel, fire was a dump onmthe outskirts of town that were always buring- also the terms “UT off the feet, hand. Pluck out the eye” was Aramaic and simply,meant to stop looking at sin, stop walking twoards,towards,, stop participating in it” it didn’t literally mean to cut them off and pluck them out

[[Ask yourself, Do you think Satan wants you to “remain” in Christ? ]]

Thank God he has no choice inmthe matter. Noone can pluck us out of God’s hand, not even ourselves. We are sealed. There are no conditions to,thay sealing, it is a done deal. If it weren’t then I would get to brag that I keep saving myself and co lelling th3 holy spirit to keep re-sealing me.


54 posted on 02/26/2022 7:30:01 AM PST by Bob434
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To: Bob434
Bob, it's been good discussion and I have learned somethings along the way. Not that you would agree with, but something that goes to deeper meanings.

Your theology of a guaranteed is just not practical in its application to me and many others both Catholic and Protestant. The ability to know one has been saved OSAS requires the one who is saved to make that declaration- based on their Faith beliefs.

Not being logical is probably a better definition than practical.
I can't follow the progression.
The saved person can know that they’re saved, once for all.
The damned often can think that they’re saved, but they aren’t (obviously) or never were in the first place.
Even those "truly" saved being around the damned often think that the damned individual is saved, and before he or she ultimately “falls away"- and is no longer saved.

I cannot process this as any type if assurance or even knowing how it can be assured. If the outward or onward lives of those being saved and being damned-but-deluded are the same (you think you’re saved, other people think you’re saved), where’s the assurance, exactly?
After all, the ultimately damned person may be just as assured of his salvation as the "truly" saved person, but then obviously that assurance of salvation doesn’t seem to be doing much for him.
If anything, it might even be damaging, presuming that the ultimately damned person could have been saved if not for the appearance of already being saved.
So in a practical sense, a false sense of being saved can be something akin to a demonic.

So, I remain unswayed in the area of guaranteed salvation, OSAS doctrine stuff. Also,  primarily, I see where you must feel Free Will does not exist,, or we lose our Free Will upon being saved. That loss of free will assumes an assured guarantee then- but then how can someone be saved at one point in their life and then 20 years down the road turn Atheist Do we lose our free will selectively?.

• As often found, the arguments for the guarantee are always self-referential, that basically end up  assuming the thing that needs to be proved.
and that depends on standards that can be applied in one area of biblical theology- but rejected in another. The standard of rejecting a "metaphor" such as- "This is my Body" can be easily applied to "plucking sheep out of God's hands".
Too much has to be read into the passages you cite, and in that even if they are  accepted,  "This is my Body" must be accepted along the same lines of criteria. You can see where an even playing field of interpretation would lead to.. • Subjectivity rules the day.

So no, snow,isn’t burying a turd as you suggest. We are washed white as snow. We also,aren’t “buried under snow” ...

Whoa... "snow covering a turd pile" representing sin IS NOT MY SUGGESTION...
THAT WAS MARTIN LUTHER'S explanation of how his idea of once saved... worked. Thats NOT a Catholic teaching AT ALL.

I assumed you knew. I am at a disadvantage here because I have no clue which denomination or free spirit community you may belong. I would assume you ascribe to some variation thereof though.

No one can pluck us out of God’s hand, not even ourselves. We are sealed. There are no conditions to,thay sealing, it is a done deal.

Again, what you are reading into there is permanency. That verse does not say that. Again, you're  assuming the very issue that needs to be proven. And so it becomes circular.
I could just as easily say that being in God's hands is the same as "being in his Love"... you would say no.... God always Loves Us...but then John says we must do something to REMAIN in God's Love- and if we don't- it is obviously a conditional proposition outside the assurance of any guarantee. I know some would say that eternal guarantee is so strong- one does NOT even have to Love God once saved. It's not practical.

The passage and taking into account who the passage was written to makes that clear that this was specifically about jews who were not saved, and was not about gentile Christians. The link I gave explains in detail

If they were Children of Abraham, they had every promise of a Chosen people of God... Which transcends a need to be saved. They did something in losing God's Chosen status- regardless of "what" it was that they did.

This isn’t true either. Unsaved peop,e who pretend to be saved know in their hearts they are unsaved. God isn’t going to trick anyone, and he always let’s them know through his spirit who convicts them.

How can someone "pretend" to be saved? CINO'S as you say? There are hundreds of faith beliefs out there? Who decides who is right- and gets to decide who is CINO?
Who becomes the Judge in that?
Does divorce/adultety disqualify ? Pro-Abortion sentiments?? Who makes t he call?

You have gone to great lengths to tell me once your saved- you saved.... and all it takes is ONE moment out of a lifetime to declare that salvation Guarantee. I see that as a very hood reason to believe we have been saved in Baptism, continue to be saved through God's Graces, and Hope to be saved in nto eternity upon our earthly death. Doesn't that seem more practical? And avoids the pretense of pr oclsimkng of being saved much sooner before we die?

You go on to state that they perform certain Christian rituals, but none of those save. Only faith in Christ saves. Religious but unsaved people go through all,manner of rituals and baptisms and whatnot, but they have never accepted christ as savior. We can’t earn our way to heaven by following religious rituals and rites etc.

You need to be depogrammed.
The Church teaches WE CANNOT earn our Salvation- it is only through the Grace of God... AND furthermore... WE GAVE BEEN ALREADY PROMISED eternallife in the Cross..we already have that...its nit something we can earn...but only Something we can lose...
Aside from St. PETER declaring that Baptism now SAVES YOU... leaving that aside, the Church does NOT teach the Sacraments save you. They only can CONVEY GOD'S GRACE throughout our earthly lifetime. ONLY Christ can save. And NOR do I judge myself saved... that is up to God.

How is declaring myself saved OSAS... any different then someone declaring themself saved through rituals? THEY ARE BOTH SELF-DETERMINANT (Again. The Church teaches ONLY Christ can Save.)

When we claim we can lose salvation and re-earn it, it is no longer “Christ alone” but now becomes “Christ plus my pious living” that earns salvation

You don't lose Salvation- or the promise thereof. It's a turning away from God- choosing sin over repentance.
God does not take away his promise, ever- or allow someone else to take away his promise.... we have to break his promise and turn our back.

It's always something we sinners DO... Gotta leave it there...


55 posted on 02/27/2022 10:05:54 PM PST by MurphsLaw ("We are not Saved by the Words of God per se, rather We are Saved by the Word of God, Made Flesh.")
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