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Archbishop Viganò Reacts to Francis’ Statements to a Spanish Newspaper
The Remnant Newspaper ^ | August 7, 2023 | Aldo Maria Valli

Posted on 08/11/2023 10:51:44 AM PDT by ebb tide

Archbishop Viganò Reacts to Francis’ Statements to a Spanish Newspaper

Aldo Maria Valli (Duc in altum): Your Excellency, we often say “motus in fine velocior” – “movement is faster towards the end” – about Francis’ attitude aimed at liquefying what little remains of Catholic doctrine and espousing the thought of the world. The most recent news confirms this, including yet another one of his interviews. What is your assessment?

+Carlo Maria Viganò: World Youth Day, celebrated this year in Lisbon, Portugal, has confirmed the acceleration of Bergoglio’s plan to provoke a schism: his latest appointments, which are provocative to say the least; the statements of the newly-appointed Cardinals, all of which confirm the “Bergoglian revolution”; the presence of James Martin to propagandize the acceptance of LGBTQ ideology by young people; Bergoglio’s recent statement to a transgender person: “God loves us as we are; go ahead” (here). The only thing missing was an interview in which the Argentine “confessed” to an editorial staff of genuflecting and cheering journalists to complete the picture (here).

The adoring tone of the interview is beyond embarrassing: which, for someone who claims to detest hypocrisy and servility, would sound tragic if it were not so grotesque. The cloying obsequiousness of the journalists went so far as to say that Bergoglio is “like a country priest accustomed to treating everyone equally, or a woman who from dawn to dusk goes out of her way to support her family.” The abject lyricism of Vida Nueva, however, has the drawback of exposing the false spontaneity of the interviewee’s words, which were in fact carefully dropped like time bombs waiting to see them detonate.

In presenting himself as a mirror of all humility he speaks of himself as a “victim of the Holy Spirit and Providence,” as if to attribute the misfortune of this “pontificate” to God Himself, and not to the maneuvers of both the deep church through the Mafia of St. Gallen and the deep state through the emails of John Podesta and Hillary Clinton.

From the interview it appears that Bergoglio expected everything but to become pope. But the story says something very different...

I am amazed by Bergoglio’s literary gifts: the evocative re-enactment of how surprised he felt at the election does not reconcile with what we now know happened at the 2013 Conclave, which has also been confided by a Cardinal-elector who is unable to reveal it publicly. And in presenting himself as a speculum totius humilitatis – a mirror of all humilityhe speaks of himself as a “victim of the Holy Spirit and Providence,” as if to attribute the misfortune of this “pontificate” to God Himself, and not to the maneuvers of both the deep church through the Mafia of St. Gallen and the deep state through the emails of John Podesta and Hillary Clinton.

So, let’s get to the time bombs...

The first time bomb: “The Synod was the dream of Paul VI. When the Second Vatican Council ended, he realized that the Church in the West had lost the synodal dimension. These words are a way to confirm the subversive character of the “collegiality” of Vatican II, as a counterweight against the Petrine Primacy solemnly and infallibly proclaimed at Vatican Council I by Blessed Pius IX. Thus we learn that the episcopal collegiality theorized by the innovators in Lumen Gentium had to make use of the Synod of Bishops precisely as a parliamentary body on the model of civil forms of government. In essence, “collegiality” was the application in the ecclesiastical sphere of the Masonic principle spread by the French Revolution to overthrow the Catholic monarchies. “It is a question of moving forward to recover that synodal dimension that the Eastern Church has and we have lost,” Bergoglio said. But this “synodal dimension” is a modernist Newspeak term for not admitting their actual intent to deliberately subvert the Papacy as a monarchical form of authority. This is an attack on the divine institution of the Church, perpetrated by the one who should instead be defending her from heretics. We are witnessing the demolition of the supreme magisterial and governmental authority of the Roman Pontiff, which is the bond of Catholic unity, by the one who sits on the Throne of Peter and who acts and is obeyed by virtue of the authority recognized to the Roman Pontiff. It is like watching the fire chief giving orders to his subordinates to pour gasoline into the bush and set it on fire, after emptying the tanks and draining the water supplies.

There is also talk of the Synod of 2001...

Yes, in the worrying sequence of Bergoglian “reworkings of reality” there also appears a recollection of the Synod of 2001, when Bergoglio evokes this episode: “Then the cardinal in charge of coordination came, examined the papers, and began to say: ‘This is not voted on ... nor this.’ I replied: ‘Your Eminence, this has come out of the groups...’” And the naïve listener thinks: “See how good Bergoglio is; he wants the basis for telling the Bishops what the real problems of the faithful are, etc. etc.,” only to discover that what had then “come out of the groups” was presented as such, no more and no less than what happened farcically at the 2015 “Synod on the Family,” for which the documents were prepared ahead of time by Bergoglio’s circle and had been previously approved by him; and now even more evidently with the “Synod on Synodality,” for which the questionnaire sent to the Dioceses, parishes and groups was formulated in such a way as to exclude certain questions and steer the answers in the desired direction. When Bergoglio reassures us, “But things have been ‘purified’; we have made progress, and today everything is voted on and listened to,” we must understand that the obstacles previously represented by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith by other Congregations have now been eliminated either through the appointment of perfectly-aligned heretics or through the ouster of the Roman Curia from any coordinating role in deference to the “national churches” or the Episcopal Conferences, all of which are occupied by heretics and corrupt individuals who are subservient to Santa Marta.

The affirmation, “In the Synod the protagonist is the Holy Spirit,” serves to clothe with an aura of authority the decisions taken by Jorge Mario, which have absolutely nothing divine about them, and indeed reveal themselves as intrinsically opposed to the Catholic Magisterium.

We also have the example of the Synod on the Family. From the outside, Communion for the divorced has been imposed on us as a great theme. In this case it was the psychology of the wave, which was trying to expand. But, fortunately, the result went much further... much further.” So much further, I would say, as to arouse the formal protest of some Cardinals and numerous prelates, priests, religious, and theologians, in the face of distancing from traditional doctrine in matters of adultery, public concubinage, and the family. Let us not forget the fraudulent operation with which some of Bergoglio’s minions stole from the mailboxes of the Synod Fathers the book about the errors of Amoris Lætitia which denounced the interference by progressives in the conduct of the Synod.

Even in areas where the dissent of the faithful and pastors against the current Vatican regime is greater, such as Africa, key roles of authority have been entrusted to people who enjoy Bergoglio’s support, even if they are completely inadequate to hold certain positions of great responsibility.

It therefore seems that the affirmation, “In the Synod the protagonist is the Holy Spirit,” serves to clothe with an aura of authority the decisions taken by Jorge Mario, which have absolutely nothing divine about them, and indeed reveal themselves as intrinsically opposed to the Catholic Magisterium.

There is also talk of “Vatican III”...

Yes, a journalist from Vida Nueva provocatively asks: “This Synod on synodality seems to cover everything: from proposals for liturgical renewal to the need for more evangelizing communities, passing through a true preferential option for the poor, a true commitment in terms of integral ecology, and the acceptance of LGBTQ collectives. Has it ever been thought of giving it the form of the Third Vatican Council?” It ought to horrify us even to hear the hypothesis that a Synod could address such very delicate issues – liturgical reform and the evangelization of communities – and others completely foreign to the purposes of the Church, such as “a true preferential option for the poor, a true commitment in terms of integral ecology, and the acceptance of LGBTQ collectives.” Yet these are the themes being addressed at WYD 2023 during these days, with the criminal indoctrination of thousands of young people on the theme of the “ecological emergency” and woke ideology. And they are the themes – repeated obsessively by the media, in schools, in the workplace, and in politics – of the Agenda 2030 and the Great Reset, both of which are ontologically incompatible with the Catholic religion because they are intrinsically antichristic and anti-Christian.

Bergoglio’s response is disturbing: “Things are not ripe for a Third Vatican Council. And it is not even necessary at this time, since Vatican II has not yet begun to be realized. This was very risky and had to be taken into account. But there is always that fear that spreads among us at the hands of the “old Catholics,” who already at Vatican I called themselves “depositories of the true faith.”

First, Francis artificially provokes a “debate” on issues already defined by the Magisterium: he pits the “ultra-progressives” against the “conservatives.” Then he makes sure that what he wants to achieve – a doctrinal, moral, disciplinary, and liturgical change – is proposed by a mediator who appears to be neutral. At this point Bergoglio, from on high, imposes a change that seems less serious than what the ultra-progressives had requested, but which remains inadmissible for those who are Catholic.

What is the ultimate goal?

We have come to understand that Bergoglio’s main purpose is to sow division and destroy. His modus operandi is always the same. First of all, he artificially provokes a “debate” on issues that cannot be the object of controversy in the Church, since they have already been defined by the Magisterium: he pits the “ultra-progressives” against the “conservatives.” Traditional Catholics, as I explained earlier, have not followed these delusions of the neo-church for a long time, and that is good. Then he makes sure that what he wants to achieve – a doctrinal, moral, disciplinary, and liturgical change – is proposed by a mediator who appears to be neutral, who presents himself as trying to find a compromise, while in reality he panders to the progressive side. At this point Bergoglio, from on high and as if discovering only then that there is a question to be clarified on which an authoritative pronouncement is needed, imposes a change that seems less serious than what the ultra-progressives had requested, but which remains inadmissible for those who are Catholic, who at that point are forced to disobey. And this disobedience is instantly denounced as heresy or schism, simply by recalling the errors of the Old Catholics, who rejected Vatican I.

But here lies the most treacherous deception: the doctrinal deviations of the Old Catholics are simplistically dismissed by Bergoglio as having claimed to be “depositories of the true faith” – something that every heresiarch has always claimed to be doing – while the Old Catholics have shown that they share many more heresies with the Bergoglian Church than whatever they may have in common with traditionalists, beginning with the female priesthood. And it is surprising that Bergoglio does not remember that the doctrinal instances of the Old Catholics began well before the First Vatican Council, with questions regarding papal appointments of bishops in the Netherlands, but they soon showed their closeness with the modernists both by adhering to the Protestant ecumenical movement – which was firmly condemned by the Catholic Church – and by theorizing a return to the “faith of the undivided Church of the first millennium,” a theme that is so dear to the supporters of Vatican II.

We have therefore understood that the identification of an enemy – in this case “the rigid,” meaning Catholics who are faithful to the immutable Magisterium – is the corollary of the deification of the Revolution in the Church. The Synod is presented as the work of the Holy Spirit and Bergoglio is simply a victim of Providence. So, either we accept apostasy as being willed by God – which is absurd, as well as blasphemous – or we end up ipso facto in the circle of Bergoglio’s enemies, deserving for this very reason the condemnation reserved for heretics and schismatics. It is a strange way of understanding the parrhesia [frankness] and inclusiveness of the church of mercy.

Let us therefore forget the words of Our Lord in the Gospel: “Come, good and faithful servant, for you have been faithful in small things” (Mt 25:21), and let us instead listen to the “victim of the Holy Spirit”: “I do not like rigidity because it is an ugly symptom of one’s interior life.”

The interview also takes up the theme of the “rigid,” who are so disliked by the pope..

Francis is in no way oblivious to the resistance to reform that he is about to carry out,” a journalist comments. And he cites the words of a priest “who has one foot in the Curia and the other in his diocese” – “I am concerned about the rigidity of young priests,” Bergoglio concludes. Of course!

It reassures the readers, amazed that Bergoglio has not yet ventured into one of his monologues against priests who I will not call traditional, but who are even vaguely conservative. From the very first days of his “pontificate” it is precisely against those “rigid priests” that he has woven an unmatchable series of insults and scorn. The provocation of the priest “who smells of the smell of sheep” – I imagine also wearing jeans and tennis shoes – offers an opportunity to this actor, who does not fail to capitalize on it, promptly replying:

They react this way because they are afraid of a moment of insecurity that we are experiencing, and that fear prevents them from moving forward. We need to remove this fear and help them.” This is a psychoanalytic approach that leaves us astonished, in truth, and that betrays the desire to reprogram the clergy, who are rightly worried about a “moment of insecurity” that has been going on for the past sixty years so as to induce them to give in to the innovations and deviations of the Council. But the words of pharisaic understanding immediately turn into accusations and insinuations: “On the other hand, that shell hides a lot of rottenness. I have already had to intervene in some dioceses of various countries with similar parameters. Behind this traditionalism we have discovered serious moral problems and vices, double lives. We all know of bishops who, needing priests, resorted to people who had been expelled from other seminaries because they were immoral.”

One must remain astonished before Bergoglio’s determination to eradicate the unmentionable vice of the Greeks from conservative seminaries, but not wanting to acknowledge it even in the face of the denunciations of the victims of the serial predator McCarrick, the molester of seminarians and young clerics, along with the lavender mafia of his minions, who have been appointed as cardinals and placed in charge of the Roman Dicasteries. And it does not seem that this new Peter Damian of Santa Marta considers the former Jesuit Rupnik worthy of his arrows, for whom he revoked excommunication for the very serious crimes and unmentionable sacrileges with which he has been stained. If you want to see Rupnik in shackles in a cell in Castel Sant’Angelo, put the cappello romano [the Roman hat] on his head.    

Is not Bergoglio’s indulgence towards his protégés – among whom appears a long list of Jesuit confreres, united by heresy on the doctrinal front and sodomy on the moral front – not perhaps explained by the fact that when he was master of novices, the Argentine behaved in a manner not unlike that of the former Archbishop of Washington? Qui legit intelligat.

Let us therefore forget the words of Our Lord in the Gospel: “Come, good and faithful servant, for you have been faithful in small things” (Mt 25:21), and let us instead listen to the “victim of the Holy Spirit”: “I do not like rigidity because it is an ugly symptom of one’s interior life. The pastor cannot afford to be rigid. [...] Someone recently told me that the rigidity of young priests arises because they are tired of the current relativism, but this is not always the case.” And here we find re-proposed the typical cliché of the anticlericals of the nineteenth century: those who appear virtuous are Pharisees who are hiding unclean vices, while those who seem viceful and immoral are actually good and just need acceptance.

In effect, it is like hearing a member of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party speak: how shall we reprogram these priests, in order to force them to accept the innovations of the Council? With blackmail, with authoritarianism, with intimidation, and above all by showing them what happens to those who do not bend.

And then he speaks of the “blessed Imeldas” – I suppose he is referring to Blessed Imelda Lambertini, a Dominican nun who died after miraculously receiving the Most Holy Eucharist brought to her by the Angels – that is, the priests of an unreal and irreverent model of religiosity, who act like ostentatious nuns, who put on “the face of a saint,” who are be contrasted with the “normal seminarians, with their problems, who play soccer, who do not go into the neighborhoods to dogmatize.” Better to be a good layman than a bad priest, as the mangiapreti [priest-haters] of the past summed up with less hypocrisy, knowing well that the paradox had to serve to stigmatize the majority of the good ones and not the minority of the bad ones.

The comment of the editorial staff of Vida Nueva is disturbing: “Once those priests identified as ‘rigid’ have been ordained, how are they accompanied to enter Vatican II?  Because, deep down, they suffer from not being able to accept what comes....”

In effect, it is like hearing a member of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party speak: how shall we reprogram these priests, in order to force them to accept the innovations of the Council? With blackmail, with authoritarianism, with intimidation, and above all by showing them what happens to those who do not bend. Making them “soften”: “There are people who live trapped in a theology manual, unable to get into trouble and keep theology moving forward.” To “get into trouble,” as Bergoglio affirms, one does not need today to be heretical or corrupt, but rather faithful to the Magisterium, “trapped in a theology manual.” And he concludes with one of his pearls of wisdom: “Stagnant theology reminds me that stagnant water is the first to be corrupted, and stagnant theology creates corruption.” It should be observed that this “stagnation” of theology is actually a characteristic of the innovators: for half a century now they have been stuck clinging to the heretical claims of the Protestants of the early twentieth century, to the social claims of the “preferential option for the poor” of the 1970s, and who are unable to understand that the vitality of Catholic Revelation is quite different from the permanent revolution imposed by Vatican II.

The solution proposed by Bergoglio goes in the direction of a secularization of institutes of clerical formation: “We must emphasize a humanistic formation. Let us open ourselves to a universal cultural horizon that humanizes them. Seminaries cannot be ideological kitchens. Seminaries must form pastors, not ideologues. The problem of seminaries is serious.”

Let’s remember that the “humanistic” disciplines are the humanæ res et litteræ, the humanities, which the “humanization” of a secular and “universal” formation has nothing to do with. It goes without saying that if a seminary does not give an intellectual and doctrinal formation – hastily defined as “ideological cuisine” – the new priests will have nothing new to teach the world, thus making themselves useless and superfluous.

Let us prepare ourselves for a crescendo of unprecedented provocations: time bombs ready to explode in order to sow disorientation, confusion, and division. But let us also prepare ourselves for the awakening of consciences, above all the consciences of the faithful and the clergy, but – if Heaven wills – also the conscience of some Bishops, in the face of such enormities, in defense of the Church of Christ.

Bergoglio shows once again that he denounces the behavior of others as reprehensible at the very moment in which he himself adopts the very same behavior. With regard to the need to privilege the relationship of the Bishop with his flock, he does not realize that his words sound mocking when he says: “You already see that in the new appointments of bishops – not only in Spain, but throughout the world – I apply a general criterion: once a bishop is in residence and assigned, he is already married to that diocese. If you look at another [if you’re hoping for a transfer], it’s ‘episcopal adultery.’ Anyone who seeks promotion commits ‘episcopal adultery.’” Yet bishops who are loved by their faithful – such as Bishop Joseph Strickland in Texas – are subjected to intimidation and Apostolic Visitations, in order to remove them, forcing them to resign. And there is the added paradox that the greatest author of “episcopal adultery” is Bergoglio himself, in his obsession to assimilate the Episcopate to his subversive plans, promoting corrupt characters in all the principal sees: see the endless list of Cupich, Gregory, Tobin, McElroy, Tagle, Hollerich, Grech, Zuppi....

The group interview also touches on the theme of the green initiative...

Yes, inevitably. “For November, before the UN Climate Summit takes place in Dubai, we are organizing a peace meeting with religious leaders in Abu Dhabi. Cardinal Pietro Parolin is coordinating this initiative, which will take place outside the Vatican, in a neutral territory that invites everyone to the meeting.” Because – as we have come to understand – the most important thing is to meet, to walk together, “in a neutral place,” even if the road taken leads to the abyss. And we know well that “neutral” means ostentatiously non-Catholic, in which there is no room for Our Lord: Bergoglio’s eagerness to appear in all the events that are openly hostile to Christ ought to be enough for us to understand how completely alien, foreign, incompatible, and heterogeneous he is with respect to the role he holds. The only ones to whom he shows no mercy are Catholics, and especially Catholic priests, because they have the power to offer the Holy Sacrifice to the Divine Majesty and to pour out infinite graces on the Church, graces that hinder the plans of the workers of iniquity.

What do you foresee for the immediate future?

Let us prepare ourselves for a crescendo of unprecedented provocations: time bombs ready to explode in order to sow disorientation, confusion, and division. But let us also prepare ourselves for the awakening of consciences, above all the consciences of the faithful and the clergy, but – if Heaven wills – also the conscience of some Bishops, in the face of such enormities, in defense of the Church of Christ. Very soon we may have at our side courageous, honest, and good people who cannot further indulge the rantings of a sect of heretics who are without faith, without hope, and without charity. 

This interview appears in the original Italian here



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: antipope; apostatepope; catholic; donate; donatedonaldtrump; donatetrump; frankenchurch; vigano
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1 posted on 08/11/2023 10:51:44 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Al Hitan; Fedora; irishjuggler; Jaded; kalee; markomalley; miele man; Mrs. Don-o; ...

Ping


2 posted on 08/11/2023 10:52:13 AM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: ebb tide

If Vigano were Pope, I would consider converting to Catholicism. He’s one of my heroes.


3 posted on 08/11/2023 10:56:38 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: ebb tide

One of the new cardinals is a 96-year-old Capuchin priest from Argentina, who evidently is the priest who baptized Diego Maradona, the soccer star. He won’t be eligible to vote in the next conclave so he can’t do any harm, unlike some of the other cardinals picked by Pope Francis.


4 posted on 08/11/2023 11:06:28 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: RoosterRedux

Lot of Catholics would be cheering..I suspect Frankie’s choices of cardinals was to sweep in another anti catholic like himself.....destroying the church a little at time...I guess the entire gates of hell will not prevail against my church quote , went right over Frankie’s head....


5 posted on 08/11/2023 1:07:11 PM PDT by Hambone 1934 (Dems love playing Nazis.....The republicans love helping them)
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To: ebb tide

Bookmark


6 posted on 08/11/2023 1:12:32 PM PDT by Pajamajan (Pray for our was nation. Never be slave in a new Socialist America)
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To: RoosterRedux

Perhaps you should reconsider for your salvation as the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ with seven Sacraments to help us in our path to Salvation.

The Catholic Church has saints and sinners as the Body of Christ. We should follow Christ’s Truth and not the ways of the World sometimes led by priests and bishops.

We do not judge Francis as a person, but we can examine his bad fruits (actions) that are contrary to God’s Truth and not follow them.


7 posted on 08/11/2023 1:50:49 PM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: Hambone 1934

There’s a story, perhaps apocryphal, of a cardinal speaking to Napoleon, Napoleon Bonaparte. Napoleon tells him,

“Your eminence, are you not aware that I have the power to destroy the Catholic Church?” To which the cardinal tells Napoleon,

“Your majesty, we Catholic clergy have done our best to destroy the church for the last 1800 years. We have not succeeded, and neither will you.”

So the fact that the church has withstood attacks from without and even within for over 2000 years, is one of the motives of credibility, one of the pieces of evidence that St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of when he presented his case for the church having a divine foundation.

Catholic Answers
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/answering-a-jesuits-eucharistic-heresy


8 posted on 08/11/2023 1:58:23 PM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM

For your information, Napoleon returned to the Catholic faith before he died and received the Sacraments.

The two Corsicans spent hours together. Napoleon declared his belief in God and began regular reading of the Bible. He once barked away an atheist doctor who sniggered at his religion, telling him he could not bear dullness of heart.

He made his confession to Father Vignali and returned to the sacraments. Napoleon was denied all communication with his son, so he asked Father Vignali to bring his son the chalice and altar accessories from St. Helena when he died.

The emperor’s long struggle with the Church was over. He was at peace, it seems, with Christ and his vicar. He called Pius VII “an old man, full of kindness and light.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/napoleon-bonaparte-versus-the-pope


9 posted on 08/11/2023 2:03:34 PM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM

To be honest,Judas tried to destroy the church before it even got starte....


10 posted on 08/11/2023 2:15:31 PM PDT by Hambone 1934 (Dems love playing Nazis.....The republicans love helping them)
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To: ADSUM
Let me add that I have a direct relationship with Jesus (as you no doubt do). He has performed so many miracles in my life (of the life-saving variety) that I have no doubt about Him.

BTW, when Jesus puts anything on my heart, I do it. When humans make suggestions, even strong ones, I listen but it's not the same thing.

As an aside, I am more aware than ever of my imperfections and weaknesses.;-)

11 posted on 08/11/2023 2:17:24 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: RoosterRedux

I am not judging, but responding to your posts.

I am glad that you have a direct relationship with Jesus and he has helped with miracles, as His words are the Truth.

I hope that Jesus puts the following words in your heart:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” Matthew 6:53-54

“This is a hard saying, who can listen to it?” Many drew back and no longer walked with Jesus. Peter replied to Jesus, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

I am trying to share that the Catholic Church in the Sacrament of the Eucharist at the Mass where the priest consecrates the bread and wine into the physical Body and Blood of Christ. Actually, Jesus performs the miracle through the priest.

As Catholics (most of us) truly believe the words of Jesus as the Apostles and their successors have for 2000 years. If a Catholic including a Pope or Bishop does not believe, then it is their sin, not the sin of the whole Body of Christ (baptized members).

Other churches may have communion, but they do not have the true presence of Jesus in the form of bread and wine.

There are many good books that fully explain the Eucharist, and I will be glad to discuss further.

I hope that you consider the words of Jesus and not the false arguments that reject the words of Jesus.


12 posted on 08/11/2023 5:36:03 PM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM
John 6:53. Not Matthew.

Let me say that John 6:53 is about much, much more than the Eucharist. Its meaning is, well, like all of what He says, infinite in its applicability and usefulness to the believer.

It you look at the entirety of John 6, you will see that Jesus is talking about "bread" (i.e., sustenance) over and over again. He then shocks people with His proclamation about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, firstly to drive His point home that He is the Bread/Sustenance of life and, then, secondly to point to what is about to happen to him on the Cross (i.e., His flesh and His blood are about to be poured out for humanity).

Our consuming His flesh and drinking His blood is metaphorical (a parable) and practical, in that we must consume everything about Him (His words, His teachings, His very Spirit).

We all remember that corny old dietary proverb, "You are what you eat." That's a good way of putting what Jesus is telling us.

We must consume everything that He is--particularly the Cross. We must become the embodiment of Him.

BTW, becoming the embodiment of Jesus is impossible without being filled with the Holy Spirit. In fact, being filled with the Holy Spirit is the ultimate conclusion of "Eating His flesh and drinking his blood."

13 posted on 08/12/2023 3:55:43 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: RoosterRedux

Thank you for your response and understanding of John 6:53.

You state that this a parable, but I am not aware of any teaching from Jesus that this is a parable.

What is your source of your understanding? When you say that “we must consume everything about Him (His words, His teachings, His very Spirit).” Does that also mean that we must consume His physical Body and Blood for our eternal life? Is it possible that Jesus meant what He said and not a parable?

Do you believe that Jesus gave his Apostles at the Last Supper before he died his physical body and blood un the firm of bread and wine? If Jesus is God and omnipotent, then isn’t He capable of doing what he said? Why do we not believe His word?

My source is Sacred Tradition as stated in John 6, Matthew 26:26-27, Luke 22:19-20 and supported by the response of the Apostles and passed down in the Mass as the Sacrament of the Eucharist for 2000 years.

Please explain Jesus’s quote in Matthew 26:26-27 and Luke 22:19-20:
“Take, Eat; this is my body.” And he took the chalice, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

This is very clear to me that Jesus gave us His Body and Blood in the form of bread and wine and told us to take and eat and drink. And Jesus repeated it on the road to Emmaus with two disciples when he was known by the breaking of the bread. Luke 24:13-35

Yes, as you say, We know that Jesus wants us to know Him fully as the bread of life (if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever) and to know that He died on the Cross for our sins so that mankind’s relationship with God could be restored.

While we can fully believe in Jesus and all that He taught us and we express our love of God, shouldn’t we accept His loving gift of His Body and Blood? At Mass, we can stand at the foot of the Cross as Jesus offers himself in an unbloody sacrifice to God the Father Almighty.

I am sincerely concerned that many may take the easy path that leads to destruction and follow false prophets that contradict the teachings of Jesus. Matthew 7:13-23

As part of the Sacrament of Confirmation, we are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. As true witnesses of Christ we are obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.

For scientific confirmation, google Eucharistic miracles. Scientists have stated that hosts that have been examined indicate a blood type AB, living heart muscle that has suffered.

I am not trying to tell you what to believe, but to share the teaching of Jesus that has been passed down to me.

God’s Peace be with you and listen to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


14 posted on 08/12/2023 10:03:27 AM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM
As you said,
I am not trying to tell you what to believe, but to share the teaching of Jesus that has been passed down to me.
I understand that and need to say that it is not my place or intention to challenge that.

Here's what I said in my comment just in case I wasn't very clear:

John 6:53 is about much, much more than the Eucharist. Its meaning is, well, like all of what He says, infinite in its applicability and usefulness to the believer.

I am not diminishing the Eucharist (if it sounds as if I did, please forgive me). I am saying that the verse is about the Eucharist and much more.

If the entire Gospel were nothing but the Eucharist, then there would be no need to study the rest of it. But that is not the case.

Let me repeat, I am not saying the Eucharist isn't extremely important. I'm just saying there is much, much more.

15 posted on 08/12/2023 10:46:35 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: ADSUM
As an aside, it's sincere believers like you that make Catholicism so appealing.

Keep up the good work.:-)

16 posted on 08/12/2023 10:58:56 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: RoosterRedux

Thanks for you reply and I am not sure what you mean that John 6:53 “is about much, much more than the Eucharist.”

Please explain in detail and share your source.

It appears that the main issue of John 6:53 is not being addressed by many.

Yes, the Eucharist is extremely important to the Christian life.

The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch. CCC1324

The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of the communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being, it is the culmination both of God’s actions sanctifying the world in Christ and the worship of men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy spirit. CCC1325


17 posted on 08/12/2023 1:02:12 PM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM
I just have a moment but wanted to share this with you. Most people (even priests and Biblical scholars) don't talk much about the narrative flow of the Bible. But it is there and it is profound beyond words--in the Old Testament and in the New.

To see for yourself the incredible narrative depth that is in the Bible (yes, to see how much more than just the Eucharist is there), read the Book of John from beginning to end...and then read it again. Keep on reading it from beginning to end until you begin to viscerally feel its narrative flow.

After a while, it will get under your skin. And not only do Jesus's words take on new life, but Jesus himself also becomes clearer and clearer in the narrative. You will see things and hear things you have never seen before.

You might not be interested, but I have links on my FR homepage to an audio Bible narrated by Sir David Suchet of "Hercule Poirot" fame (BBC) (it's on youtube). I listen to it at night when I can't sleep. In fact, I always end my day listening to it until I fall asleep and then again when I wake up in the morning.

As we all know, the Bible is supernatural and magical. It is my addiction.;-)

I have read the Bible from beginning to end so many times I have lost count. I tell people that you can hear the voice of Jesus throughout the Old Testament. Jesus is just like His Father.

Sorry for getting carried away, but you get the picture.

We are so incredibly lucky to have Him.

18 posted on 08/12/2023 3:22:54 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: RoosterRedux

Thanks for sharing. Yes, it is important when one sees the whole picture instead of one sentence or paragraph. One can understand the specific sentence on its own or supported by other information in the Bible or Sacred Tradition.

I have several Catholic Bibles and read them. However, I generally stay away from protestant versions. While I appreciate that many protestants are trying to know Jesus and follow Him, the protestant religions were formed many years after Christ established His Catholic Church and while they may preach the Bible in a positive way, they are based on heresy on many significant matters that are contrary to God’s Truth often established by former Catholic priests (Luther, Calvin)

I believe the Jesus founded one Catholic Church as our Head and baptized members are His Body (His Church). Jesus did not found multiple churches and I believe that many are taking the easy road. (Mt 7:13) Many Catholics seem to be taking the easy road too. I believe protestant leaders (and some priests and bishops) are either intentionally or not are teaching against God’s Truth.

I am willing to discuss specific issues that you may disagree with the Catholic understanding. However, you seem to avoid discussing the specific issue of salvation in John 6:53?

There are two general philosophies translators use when they do their work: formal (or complete) equivalence and dynamic equivalence. Formal equivalence translations try to give as literal a translation of the original text as possible. Translators using this philosophy try to stick close to the originals, even preserving much of the original word order.

Literal translations are an excellent resource for serious Bible study. Sometimes the meaning of a verse depends on subtle cues in the text; these cues are only preserved by literal translations.

The disadvantage of literal translations is that they are harder to read because more Hebrew and Greek style intrudes into the English text. Compare the following renderings of Leviticus 18:6-10 from the New American Standard Bible (NAS—a literal translation) and the New International Version (NIV—a dynamic translation):

The disadvantage of dynamic translations is that they lose precision because they omit subtle cues to the meaning of a passage that only literal translations preserve. They also run a greater risk of reading the translators’ doctrinal views into the text because of the greater liberty in how to render it.

For example, dynamic Protestant translations, such as the NIV, tend to translate the Greek word ergon and its derivatives as “work” when it reinforces Protestant doctrine but as something else (such as “deeds” or “doing”) when it would serve Catholic doctrine.

The NIV renders Romans 4:2 “If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works (ergon), he had something to boast about—but not before God.” This passage is used to support the Protestant doctrine of salvation by faith alone. But the NIV translates the erg- derivatives in Romans 2:6-7 differently: “God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done (erga).’ To those who by persistence in doing (ergou) good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

If the erg- derivatives were translated consistently as “work” then it would be clear that the passage says God will judge “every person according to his works” and will give eternal life to those who seek immortality “by persistence in working good”—statements that support the Catholic view of salvation.

Even when there is no doctrinal agenda involved, in dynamic translations the intent of the sacred author can be obscured.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/bible-translations-guide


19 posted on 08/13/2023 6:23:17 AM PDT by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM
However, you seem to avoid discussing the specific issue of salvation in John 6:53?

Actually, from my point of view, that is the only issue you want to discuss.

I have never denied the importance of the Eucharist. My point is that if you read the Bible in its entirety sufficiently and carefully, you will find that it isn't the main point.

I think your bias to what you have been raised with closes your mind to anything else and that makes any discussion a non-discussion.

As everyone should know, there is one way to the Father and that is Jesus. It is not the Catholic Church or any other church.

Sorry to have wasted your time. I will not respond again.

20 posted on 08/13/2023 7:06:39 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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