Is this the face of Jesus? (Shroud of Turin)

Premier Christianity ^ | March 24, 2024 | Sam Hailes

[21twelve]

“All of the Jewish burial ritual and customs were covered in the Mishnah, and the idea that bodies were bound up in strips of bandages is not there. A shroud was used, the jaw was bound clasped, and the arms and legs were bound to keep the body from flopping akimbo.”

I was reading about the resurrection of Lazarus, and how did he come out of the tomb if he was all bound up. Some folks think he was bound like a mummy and could still move his legs.

Some say it was a second miracle where he floated out.

That famous guy Charles Spurgeon wrote a very good article (sermon?) about it - and gave those ideas. But he thought that Lazarus was bound like you said, according to custom, and hopped out like in a gunny sack race. And then Jesus asked the people to unbind him. While Spurgeon said it didn’t really matter how Lazarus got out, he did go on with a great sermon about the event, and how it applies to us.

Jesus called us out and gave us life. Nothing we do can do that. We can accept it or not (come out of the tomb). And others can help us after we are saved and unwrap the bindings of our minds and hearts and show us the way of living out the Gospel.

[21twelve]

In one of those TV shows where they recreated the 3D image/sculpture of the head there was a woman - a nuclear physicist iirc. She talked about something called a singularity iirc. I don’t recall exactly, but in my mind I thought of the original creation (”let there be light” - which now I think refers to “energy”) and Jesus’ RE-creation. Both using the same mechanism.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

A lot of scientists believe that whatever formed the image came from the body itself and not from an external source. And so a lot of them posit that it was controlled radiation, or even a nuclear reaction of some kind.

This has always been my supposition when studying the descriptions of the image on the Shroud.

[Flag_This]

"I was reading about the resurrection of Lazarus, and how did he come out of the tomb if he was all bound up."

It would make a great miracle blooper reel. Jesus resurrects Lazarus but forgets to free him from his bindings, so Lazarus must roll out of the tomb. Much hilarity ensues.

[grey_whiskers]

ON an old thread I wrote about the C-14 dating.

This is going from memory, and I’ll be Swordmaker will correct me if I’m wrong.

The samples were taken from the one area where everyone agreed samples should NOT be taken from: a section of the Shroud which had been repaired by a technique called “French Invisible Reweaving” (or. a name very similar to that, I’m going from memory). In that technique, new thread is gradually incorporated into the damaged original cloth, such that the % of new fiber gradually tapers from 100% down to 0%.

The samples were chosen from THAT portion of the Shroud; and further, the samples were taken along a straight line going from the edge (100% newer cloth) to the middle of the Shroud.

As I recall, the carbon dating results of each sample (each one given to a separate lab) were “C-14 apparent age, X years old +/- Y uncertainty” ... but the three labs’ results were outside of each others’ error bars.

Those results should have screamed either “systematic error” or “inhomogenity in the sample”.

[grey_whiskers]

True, but Catholicism does

No it doesn't. I converted to Catholicism long before I dug into the Shroud.

And my acceptance of the Shroud as genuine is based on the scientific study, rather than Church teaching (I don't think I've ever personally heard any priest or higher official talking about the Shroud or insisting we must believe in it).

I think the reason dratted Protties reject the Shroud is that too many of them are like the Pharisees, believing that salvation is a matter of competitive Scripture memorization rather than God's mercy.

[grey_whiskers]

Google’s AI infamously told someone that 2+3=4.

And that picture of George Washington...
Good choice on your part.😇

[grey_whiskers]

It takes a lot for me to say, “Literally can’t even” but you’ve come close.

There are a number of physical and chemical attributes of the Shroud that daVinci could not pull off, or would not have had access to.

In addition to the placement of the nails in the wrists.

[grey_whiskers]

Like, thanks, dude.

You are truly a fount of info on many topics!

PS Happy pre-Easter.

[Melian]

Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ, King of endless glory!

[SkyDancer]

And to add again: the technology to produce the Shroud as a fraud was not available to them at the time and so far even today it cannot be duplicated.

[Melian]

I read an interesting book by a doctor who has studied the shroud for years. He concluded that the image is of a man FLOATING upright, based on the position of the feet and hair. The moment of resurrection. A flash of celestial light.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1644138867/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Swordmaker]

That famous guy Charles Spurgeon wrote a very good article (sermon?) about it - and gave those ideas. But he thought that Lazarus was bound like you said, according to custom, and hopped out like in a gunny sack race.

If a body is buried in the manner as prescribed in the Mishnah, Lazarus would simply untie his leg bindings. They aren’t tight or even snug. Pull off the facecloth binding his mouth closed, and wiggle his wrists free; again, they aren’t meant to imprison a living, struggling person, just to keep a dead body from going slack and flopping with the effects of decomposition when rigor mortis passes, and the flesh no longer holds the bones in place.

[Swordmaker]

As I recall, the carbon dating results of each sample (each one given to a separate lab) were “C-14 apparent age, X years old +/- Y uncertainty” ... but the three labs’ results were outside of each others’ error bars.

You get an A+ for this test and course work, grey_whiskers.

[21twelve]

John 11:43-44

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

Perhaps he did wriggle free of some of the bindings enough to move. Perhaps they were laying loose but still entangling him to some degree. Or - thinking about it now - Jesus (in this translation) says to take the grave clothes off. Perhaps emphasizing that he is alive - and doesn’t require the ritualistic burial coverings.

[Swordmaker]

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

The cloth "around" his face in the original Greek actually is better translated as "encircling" or "about" his face. This describes a cloth twirled like a kerchief and used under the chin, around the head, tied above the crown of the head to keep the jaw closed.

In modern burials, morticians sew the gums of the upper mandible to the lower mandible behind the teeth to achieve this same result. It would not be a good look for the deceased’s mouth to sudden drop open and gape during an open coffin viewing.

In Jesus’ tomb, it was noted that the sudarium, literally a sweat cloth that would be rolled and then tied around the forehead to keep sweat from dripping into a worker’s eyes, was found rolled up, separate from the rest of the grave clothes. This was of significance to the New Testament chroniclers because to them it indicated that Jesus walked away, reached up, pulled off that jaw closure binding from about his face and dropped it near the entrance of the tomb on his way out. It was an important detail for them. They wrote it down after passing it down orally for almost two centuries.

Some translation of the Bible call it a napkin… trying to relate the size of the cloth to cloths people knew in their daily lives. A napkin in that day and age was an apron, a covering used in a kitchen to protect clothing, fairly large, as was the sudarium at 33"X 21" napkin would be an excellent choice of words in olde English in the 15th Century to select describing an apron cloth of that size. Note that the distance across the diagonal of the cloth is 39" and would be more than enough to provide the binding for keeping the jaw closed in death.

The Sudarium, the one supposedly found in the tomb, still exists today and is on display in the Cámara Santa of the Cathedral of San Salvador, Oviedo, Spain. It has been there since 600AD.

The Sudarium of Oviedo

[21twelve]

“Note that the distance across the diagonal of the cloth [Sudarium] is 39” and would be more than enough to provide the binding for keeping the jaw closed in death.”

Thank you for the size and the image. I just measured my bandana at 28” on the diagonal and it would work to keep my jaw shut. (Don’t tell my wife!)

[Empireoftheatom48]

In the mid 70’s I came across an article about the shroud. It intrigued me and when ever more news about it came out I was drawn to seek it out. Now in 1978 Im a platoon leader of a Hawk Missile Btry. in Germany, my wife is pregnant and because of the lack of officers available to pull duty Ive just come off pulling months of back to back duty. The previous Sunday our priest announced again about the parish trip to see the shroud. It was also going to be studied by scientists from the Air Force Academy beginning on the last day of its public exposition. Some how I was able to get a few days leave and with my wife’s permission I was able to go. It was a fantastic experience. In line for an hour finally got to the Altar where is was suspended above. At first every thing seemed washed out then slowly I could begin to see it, it was there the whole body visible right in front of me. While looking all of a sudden I got this feeling to turn around. When I did I got to see the output of the feeling of faith from the faces staring up in wonderment at the Holy Display. It was a blessed feeling. Later after dinner we walked back to the Cathedral and we could see the scientists beginning to set their equipment up to study it. What a day it was.

[Swordmaker]

Thank you for the size and the image. I just measured my bandana at 28” on the diagonal and it would work to keep my jaw shut. (Don’t tell my wife!)

ROTFLMAO!

[Jamestown1630]

This is an interesting interview with Barrie Schwortz. (It’s had to tell these days how old YouTubes really are, but this looks relatively recent.) I especially liked his story about his ‘little Jewish mother’ around 1 hour and 28 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpMStZ_7ikQ