SHROUD OF TURIN PING!
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Posted on 03/28/2024 5:23:40 PM PDT by DoodleBob
Bible believers don’t need shrouds, idols, rosaries or etc.
No, we don’t, but it’s nice to have it anyway.
Thank you for shooting that down. A good theory, I have been told, is one that can be refuted by observation alone.
Christianity does not stand or fall on the authenticity or otherwise of the shroud.
True, but Catholicism does.
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I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and we were never ever told that believing in Jesus or being a Catholic Christian depends upon the authenticity of the shroud. I’m not sure where you got that misinformation — certainly not from talking to a Catholic.
There is a documentary that takes into account the fact that the shroud is a flat representation of a 3D body . They accounted for the wrap around the face that the shroud would have done and created a proper 3D representation of what the image on the shroud would have looked like in life. So no the image we see looking at the shroud isn’t t at all what Jesus looked like.
Thank you.
BFL
Are you sure that’s the same text?That was the KJV whish is transliterated from the masoretic test. Brentons Septuagint states:
Behold, my servant shall understand, and be exalted, and glorified exceedingly. 14 As many shall be amazed at thee, so shall thy face be without glory from men, and thy glory shall not be honoured by the sons of men.
If not honoured then why glorify some shroud and why would anyone think after being beaten mercilessly his face would have been anything but mashed?
Let’s ask when we get to heaven
I read years ago, that in the Middle Ages people might want something they could call “sacred”. So con men would take a statue, cover it with a rough cloth, then take a charcoal “powder puff” and daub the cloth with it giving the impression of the statue on it. then they would sell them as a Holy Relic.
The other thing is: The nail holes are in his wrist not his palms. In Jewish culture, the hand goes from the palm to the elbow. The nails would have ripped out of the palms but not the wrist.
The rest of the keyword, sorted:
Agree with all of what you said. Again.
Even with our modern tech we couldn’t have forged the Shroud. But someone from many centuries ago did? C’mon. Again, if anyone believes that, please PM me. I’ve got a bridge in NY to sell.
כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים כֵּן־מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ וְתֹאֲרוֹ מִבְּנֵי אָדָם׃
and the Septuagint for Isaiah 52:14 is:
ὃν τρόπον ἐκστήσονται ἐπὶ σὲ πολλοί οὕτως ἀδοξήσει ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων τὸ εἶδός σου καὶ ἡ δόξα σου ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων
I double checked and ran them through Google Translate again just now. Made sure I had the right verse. And sure enough Google Translate totally butchered it beyond recognition!
Amen!
I’ve seen iconoclast churches.
Basketball stadiums have more sacred space than those places.
Give me all the smells, bells and fullness of the faith that unfortunately Protestants have abandoned for crackers and grape juice.
Thanks for being a good Berean( ). I never have seen that verse transliterated your way and google translate has been suspect for me trying to converse with others in their native languages.
Have a blessed Friday. Sunday’s coming!
Posted being a good Berean .
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While essentially correct, one slight correction. The repaired areas the flawed 1988 carbon dating Shroud sample was extracted was a 16th Century repair. This repair used a technique developed during the fourteenth Century called "French Invisible Reweaving" which was used to repair moth eaten, torn or otherwise worn tapestries or arrases, replicating the missing cloth and making the cloth appear to match the area surrounding where the damage had been by expertly dying thread, skillful re-intertwining broken ends of new to old threads, and matching weave patterns.
Especially as several of the reasons not to believe are false statements. For example:
1 In 1988, an international team of scientific experts performed radiocarbon dating on snippets of the Shroud and concluded it was manufactured between 1260 and 1390. They said the Shroud was nothing more than a medieval hoax.
Science is done by doing procedures with proper protocols. The 1988 Carbon 14 test had agreed protocols requiring a minimum of eight exemplar samples taken from a minimum of six locations from the main body of the Shroud with the only limitation that no samples be taken from areas where image would be affected. In addition, eight controls samples were to be provided of known provenance to be simultaneously tested as a blind.
At the very last moment, these protocols were tossed out unilaterally, and a single master sample was taken from the Shroud from a corner which the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project scientists had unanimously agreed should be avoided in any Carbon 14 testing due to it not testing homogeneity like any other portion of the Shroud in chemical, physical, or ultraviolet light photography and was suspected to have been patched. That single sample was cut into five sub-samples, four of which were distributed to three C14 testing laboratories instead of the original protocol six.
The labs were supposed to get the samples, both Shroud and Controls, rendered down to fibers, but instead received woven swatches easily identified as to source, as only the Shroud was known to be three over one twill. The other control samples were simple linen one over one, thus breaking the blind test.
The Tau Square test on each of the sub-samples should have raised a huge 🚩 flag on the Shroud sample testing as none of these sub sample returned dating that was within the ranges of reliability of the statistical testing… by a long stretch…. Despite these sub-samples being cut from the small piece adjacent to each other. This Tau Squared test is an indicator that the items tested are homogeneous to each other. Yet in the space of four centimeters, the ages varied by almost 270 years! The managing lab at Oxford ignored that and impermissibly averaged the data and dates. The sub-samples date as old as 1160AD +/- 20 years, while the youngest was 1390AD +/-20 ears. None of the tested sub-sample data ranges overlapped any other. Statistically, by the Tau Squared test, there was zero chance that these sub-samples were homogeneous enough from the same thing to date each other, much less equivalent or homogeneous to date the Shroud which they were supposed to be representing.
By 2005, the 1988 Carbon 14 testing had been falsified by four different means, including the examination of the retained fifth sub-sample which proved to be a rewoven melange of original flaxen Linen of unknown dating, and a larger portion of dyed, Cotten from a French cotton source, skillfully interwoven into the original weave. The cotton threads had an ‘S’ spin while the original Flax was a ‘Z’ spin. The cotton had been retted with a substance used primarily in France, developed around the twelfth century, and dyed to match the tonality of the aged linen with an alizarin dye.
Ergo, while the C-14 laboratories did excellent technical work, they dated a hopelessly contaminated sample, improperly sampled, thus falsifying all conclusions about the age of the Shroud.
3 The conclusion of a 2018 study in blood pattern analysis was not supportive of the claimed authenticity of the Shroud. The study said the apparent blood splatters could only have been produced by someone moving to adopt different poses, rather than lying still.
From the study: "Borrini said some of the results showed that the man whose image is imprinted on the shroud would have had to be standing vertical, rather than horizontal, for the blood flow patterns to make sense." The author seems to forget that Jesus spent a long time vertices on the Cross, then horizontally on the ground as the nails were removed, then in multiple bent and folded positions as He was carried to the Tomb.
Over 124 years, numerous experiments with cadavers, human volunteers, and mannequins have been performed by numerous other forensic pathologists far more qualified than Borrini, and they have found the blood flow is consistent with human blood laden with bilirubin caused by extreme trauma which prevents it from clotting and increases its fluidity, all ignored by Borrini. This is not the first article in which Borrini has attempted with questionable science to deny authenticity. He’s been around for awhile. One outlying study in a non peer-reviewed publication from 8 years ago, and no support since, is a lack of a reason for it to be given weight.
4 The Turin Commission concluded in 1979 that stains on the garment are likely pigments, not blood.
This is just completely false on its face. The STURP scientists determined that while there was a scattering of pigments on the Shroud, they were not enough to be visible and were likely environmental and due to other Artist pressing shroud copies up to the genuine Shroud to attempt to impart some contact imprimatur. The blood had been determined by the blood specialists on the team to seem to be likely real blood and reacted with human blood antigens. They found no pigments in the blood stained area.
One microscopist, not affiliated with STURP, was granted access to sticky tape slide samples from the Shroud. Walter C. McCrone claimed to have found pigment everywhere he looked on the sticky tapes, identifying red ocher, vermilion, and other Artist’s pigments used in the 14th century. He declared the Shroud a fake, a painting, and the blood, mere paint. He refused his own staff electron microscope department permission to check his work, declaring everything can be seen by his expert eye, only.
However, prior to his claims, electron microscopy including electron micro-spectroscopy had been done on the Shroud, using a technique that could determine the material of the inert baggies the samples were placed before testing it is so sensitive. These tests found nothing that McCrone claimed to have seen in his 300 power light microscope. What the did find were the old, ancient descendent compounds of hemoglobin, bilirubin, iron, the components of blood. . . Meanwhile, McCrone was claiming he could tell the dilution of the egg albumin used in the pigment. No chemist could figure out any way a microscopic image could possible tell the exact dilution of any remnant residue. McCrone later went on to claim the red ocher he found on the Shroud was a specific grind, but that grind was only developed in the early 1800s.
So much for this claim.
5 John’s Gospel records “strips of linen” (John 20:5) being used to wrap the body of Jesus, not a single burial sheet. (Although other versions translate this as linen ‘clothes’, ‘wrappings’ or ‘cloths’.)
Sigh… this old chestnut. This has far more to do with translation of Greek into English and choices made by the translators. One must dig into (excuse the pun) first century Jewish burial practices, discount long standing conflation of Egyptian burials and mummies with anything at all to do with Jewish burials, and burials clothes, and cloths, and bindings. All of the Jewish burial ritual and customs were covered in the Mishnah, and the idea that bodies were bound up in strips of bandages is not there. A shroud was used, the jaw was bound clasped, and the arms and legs were bound to keep the body from flopping akimbo. Shards of pottery or a weight was put on the eyelids to keep the eyes closed. All else is about cleansing and ritually anointing the body, and packing herbs and aromatic plants around it. It had to be interred by sundown. Simple, not elaborate. In the first century, the Greek habit of using small coins on the eyes was adopted. That’s not in the Mishnah, but numerous skulls in a first century Jewish cemetery in Jerusalem were found with such coins in the eye sockets.
After a year, the family would return, collect the bones, and put them into a central ossuary bone pit in the tomb where all of the ancestor’s bones were collected, or, alternately, in a ossuary bone box. This allowed the tomb’s shelves to be reused.
About 30 years ago, in that Jerusalem cemetery, in a section that was destroyed in a first century earthquake, an I disturbed grave of a man was discovered still in the shelf niche. With him were the remnants of a full shroud, binding cloths, etc. this demonstrates the falsity of the strips argument.
I’m not going to go into the various meanings of “othonia" and "sindon" and the other Greek words used for the grave cloths. I’ve done it before on FreeRepublic in detail.
Notwithstanding that Nazarites had longer hair than average for Jews, and notwithstanding that Jesus’s hair following His crucifixion would doubtless be rather messy, why do you think the hair shown on the Shroud of Turin counts as “long hair” that would be noteworthy enough of standing out among a crowd of people?
Neat trick. The Shroud was first put on Display around 1350AD in Lirey France. There are credible artistic images of it in the twelfth century. Verbal descriptions in 944AD. Leonardo Da Vinci was born in 1452 AD, more than 100 years after the first modern appearance of the Shroud in France. An obsessive note taker, and one who documented all of his discoveries and inventions, there is not a single mention of the Shroud in Leonardo’s workbooks, or the Time Machine he used to go back and create it, or all the time he spent researching the facts he’d need to know to include on the Shroud to fool scientist with sophisticated instruments 500 years later. Strange, that.
That is one of the mysteries of the image creation modalities. It was not light, as it attenuated very quickly. It also did not penetrate the linen. Its effect is there down to the ability of our instruments to detect it, though. The intensity of the image is proportional to the distance of the body to the surface of the linen fibers. . . And there is no image affect under the bloodstained areas. So, blood stain first, image effect next.
There are no image affects inside the fibers are inside fiber bundle of threads, however, in some most intense areas, a shadow image does appear on the obverse side of the Shroud where the body touched the cloth, but only on the exterior surface. Between the touching area and the obverse, where both areas show discoloration, in between fibers and threads do not. It is as if the causal affect discolored the entry surface, passed through with zero visible or detectable effect, and exited but then discolored the surface on exit. This implies an electrical charge.
However, as you mentioned, the other oddity is the pure detailed focus. This works only in the vertical direction with minimal angular deviation from the starting point, implying a maser or laser like collimating beam. What’s more, this has a positive and negative directional component in the Y axis, equally collimated and acting similar affect and effect.
This implies the potential for a localized Birkeland current and plasma phenomena and the intense magnetic fields.
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