Posted on 10/18/2002 5:01:00 PM PDT by ultima ratio
A General Indult would do wonders to bring some calm and clarity into these muddy and turbulenbt waters, and would take the wind out of the sails of both sides.
Amen. And return the wind to Our Lord. Let His Will be done.
Drummey, or "we" as he always refers to himself, had earlier stated that "a priest can celebrate the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin for only a grave reason, such as the shame or scandal that might be caused if the priest did not say a scheduled Mass for his parishioners."
I'd rather skip that scheduled Mass and drive 150 miles to a Mass offered by a priest in the state of grace.
The Wanderer is progressive.
So you assume that the efficacy of the Mass is dependent on the state of the soul of the priest offering it?
That's heresy.
Drummey's right, you're wrong.
You know better than this. Ever do any house renovations? This Pope inherited a sturdy old house --the best one ever built frankly-- that had been partially renovated, in a particularly unappealing way, in the years since V II. Obviously, the previous occupants had not followed the blueprints for renovation outlined in VII nor taken into consideration the soundness of the historical structure. In fact, in certain respects, they even violated the integrity of certain load bearing walls, and let termites eat away at others. The current occupant has been remiss in removing some of those termites, I admit. For this he will answer to the deed holder of the house.
But neither has his occupancy been solely window dressing! He has made structural improvements which, while we stand here looking at partially completed work, do not seem that important nor that helpful. Furthermore, he has updated features of the house that in some respects needed updated, but to some folks were not necessary. In this respect only the future can tell if these "improvements" really were improvements or just pointless changeorders.
I ask you: what have been the fruits of the past twenty, thirty, forty years?
Though I am a physician by trade, I've done remodeling, and I come from a family of construction workers.
Its hard to visualize how a room or a renovation will take shape, and while the work is ongoing it looks like a bloody mess. And those not familiar with remodeling process often cannot visualize how the rebuilding will look.
Of course, its still the same house, the same property, the same purpose, and the house still fulfills the needs of the deed holder, when the house is finished. It hopefully does it with better efficiency, but not all renovations turn out as good as others. We just have to TRUST that the current builder is following the guidelines of the Grand Architect. We can look at the plans ourselves, and point out obvious problems. But not all are competent to read blueprints, though they might insist otherwise.
Just give me a few positives, something to think about. What are the fruits--in vocations, in theology, in culture, in worldly prestige, in sanctity?
When we remodeled the office space above my office into a home, it looked like hell. You just couldn't imagine that space could turn out as livable space. But it did. You never see the end result till you sweep up the dust and haul away the construction debris. In fact, at the very end, right before all the trash is hauled away and all the dust removed and the finishing work completed, it often looks the worst, and though the end of the project is in sight, the suspense just kills you, and patience wears thin. But with just a little more work, it turns into something grand. And those last efforts are often the hardest.
I know I couldn't have done my project without my dad's help. But he's a contractor with decades of experience.
And my wife couldn't imagine the final outcome at all. She just had no experience to judge it, nor training to understand the plans. Heck, I wasn't sure what I was doing, but I trusted my dad's guidance. In the middle of the project, what else could I do but Trust him, even when my wife, intelligent in her own respect, had serious reservations?
Even our canonizations are questionable now.
Says Who?
I gived you the Keys. What you hold bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven!
Put away your doubts and Trust God instead of the wisperings of men who in their Pride think their Wisdom surpasses that of our Pope.
The house is coming along nicely. We just have to haul out the construction debris, clean up the dust, and call the exterminator for one last SERIOUS extermination.
By the way, the termites know their time is up! That's why they try to eat away as much as they can before the last blast of the Fumigator.
Well, I have to agree with sitetest and CatholicGuy. There will be no General Indult; there may be a separate Tridentine Rite and the SSPX may be invited back in under this guise.
I doubt you'll ever have the Tridentine Rite celebrated willy-nilly with the Novus Ordo.
The Novus Ordo is normative, and will remain so. But there will be more places for those desiring the Tridentine Mass to attend it.
No, I'm just willing do all I can to assist at a Mass offered by a holy priest, a priest in a state of grace. I did not state that I would skip Mass. I'm the one willing to make the drive. Can you at least give me that option?
How do you know who is in a state of grace? And, if a holier priest than the priest you want is available, shouldn't you seek him out?
You can do whatever you want, but focusing on the state of the priest's soul is misplaced, IMO.
I'm more concerned about the state of MY soul.
Exactly. Marcel Lefebvre robbed YOU of your Catholic heritage.
"We" are not united, ultima. You're the one who followed a man into schism.
If you are attending an SSPX mass, then you cannot assume that the priest is in a state of grace.
From Ecclesia Dei:"Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law." It would appear that your holy priest is blatantly and unrepentantly giving God grave offence.
Do you honestly think the trads have a monopoly on feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant?!?
Do you honestly think that just because other faithful Catholics do not embrace the schismatic path that they are any less feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant?!?
Do you honestly think that the rest of us cannot feel disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant without tearing apart the remnant Church with rhetoric that draws into question the entire post-concilar Church?!?
I have been a leader on this forum in expressing the feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant. And I have done it without the schismatic excesses of some who use this Forum to further their own agenda that serves in the end to do more damage right alongside the damage already done by the crimes of the priests and malfeasance of the hierarchy.
At least when the average faithful sees a priest sodomizing a teenage boy, they know how bad it is.
When they see a liberal dissenting nun or priest utter heresy, they know how bad it is.
But the whispers of the schismatics tickle the ears, and just sound like they might have merit in this age of chaos and suffering.
Thus our rage at the schismatic trads, because in this day when good faithful Catholics have finally figured out what orthodoxy is, satan has advanced his most subtle snare yet, these schismatic whisperings that sound so tempting, and which in an age of extreme temptations, and worn down defenses, ensnare even the elect in the despair and doubt of their rhetoric, calling into question the very Papacy as well as Ecumenical Councils.
There is just cause for the over reaction of us Papal Trads to the snares of the schismatic trads.
The rhetoric of the schismatic trads is more deceitful and enticing than the acts of any sodomite or words of any liberal dissenting heretic.
To the elect, the whisperings of the schismatic trads presents the greatest threat left to our fractured and suffering orthodox remnant Church.
So do expect to take it on the chin as long as you follow the path you are on.
But celebrating Mass because it's the only one offered on a Sunday, even if the priest is in the state of mortal sin, is an obligation for the priest. It would be an even greater sin for him to deprive the faithful of the benefits they would gain.
And John Paul II says it is.
Let's see. Who do I listen to? The successor Peter, or ultima ratio?
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