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The Neo-Catholic Dead-End
Catholic Family News ^ | October 2002 | Thomas E. Woods

Posted on 10/18/2002 5:01:00 PM PDT by ultima ratio

The Neo-Catholic Dead-End by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. Ph.D.

The Wanderer, a periodical that has done some good work over the years chronicling the antics of an American hierarchy almost too contemptible to be worth discussing, is attacking traditionalists again. Many readers will remember the attacks of Stephen Hand two years ago, inanely comparing traditionalists with modernists because both criticize some of the actions of the hierarchy. Chris Ferrara and I responded to each of his articles with essays of our own, and we were gratified to find that quite a few people became traditionalists as a direct result of reading both sides of our exchange with Hand. Such figures include Peter Miller, who now runs SeattleCatholic.com, one of the best traditionalist Internet sites, and Gladden Pappin, editor of the Harvard Salient.

Hand, by the way, after coming out in favor of optional celibacy in the priesthood, is now defending the bizarre ceremonies that accompanied the opening of Cardinal Mahony's alleged cathedral in Los Angeles. His only criticism was that "the poor" were not given ample opportunity to attend, though some of us suspect that this was a sign of God's mercy toward the poor.

There have been other attacks, both before and since, too numerous to mention, all of them unprovoked. But The Wanderer professes to be shocked-----shocked!-----that traditionalists are at last beginning to fight back against the slander, the name-calling, and the ridiculous and absurd caricatures of our position.

I was the subject of the most recent attack-----a 2700-word article that appeared in the September 5 Wanderer. [I just learned that The Wanderer refuses even to publish a letter to the editor I wrote in my own defense-----a puerile breach of basic editorial courtesy that no traditionalist publication would engage in. Writer Paul Likoudis, in his "From the Mail" column, was hysterically upset about an article called "PC in the Catholic Church" that I had written for Lew Rockwell.com, one of my favorite web sites. My arguments, he said, amounted to "a pile of dung". How lovely.

Among other things, Likoudis attempts to claim that in fact the "regime of novelty" that I mentioned in my article and that Chris Ferrara and I chronicle in our recent book The Great Facade: Vatican II and the Regime of Novelty in the Roman Catholic Church, actually originated before Vatican II. "Geriatric Marxists like former Victoria [B.C.] Bishop Remi de Roo," Likoudis writes, "have admitted they launched the project for a 'new catechism' before 1959." But good grief-----a bunch of loonies launching "projects" is not a regime of novelty. What Chris Ferrara and I are talking about is indeed a regime, in which novel practices and attitudes are consistently and systematically foisted on the Catholic population by figures at all levels of governance. There was nothing even approaching that before Vatican II, and Likoudis knows it.

This is a fairly typical argument, though, of those who weave apologias for revolutions: the old days weren't really so good after all. Every revolution systematically denigrates what preceded it. In our own society, whenever a conservative laments the dissolution of the traditional family, some leftist comes along and denies that the traditional family was ever really as stable or widespread as we nostalgics like to claim. And here is Likoudis perfectly, if unwittingly, fulfilling that revolutionary role: do not criticize the revolution, comrade, for things were no better in the days of your ancestors.

Likoudis continues in this vein: "To blame the Popes, the Second Vatican Council, and the Mass for the Church's present scandals is to take a very unhistorical view of the past 150 years or so. As far back as 1877, John Henry Cardinal Newman-----who thought he was living in a 'Second Spring' of the Church-----opined: 'As to the prospects of the Church . . . my apprehensions are not new, but above 50 years standing. I have all that time thought that a time of widespread infidelity was coming, and through all those years the waters have in fact been rising as a deluge. I look for the time, after my life, when only the tops of the mountains will be seen, like islands in the waste of waters'."

So Cardinal Newman saw difficult times ahead. So what? So did Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII. Each of them, however, through good governance, staved off disaster. Interestingly, the only Popes who spoke with optimism about the state of the world were John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II, the three Popes who had the least grounds for optimism.

Yet again, we have, in Likoudis' remark, one of the most disturbing aspects of neo-Catholicism: the almost desperate desire to disparage the state of the Church before Vatican II, in order to shift the blame for the post-conciliar debacle away from the Council. [The completely ahistorical idea that no ecumenical council could ever do damage to the Church is refuted by the disastrous Second Council of Constantinople of 553, which I discussed in these pages earlier this year and which we treat at length in The Great Facade.]

There were problems before Vatican II, of course, as there always will be in this vale of tears, but the state of the Church earlier in the 20th Century was obviously one of great health and vigor, as even Pope John XXIII admitted at the beginning of the Council. Speaking of the situation in America between 1884 and 1921, historian Theodore Maynard writes:

"The Catholic population of America had increased from about seven million to nearly twenty million, the number of priests-----secular and religious-----from 7,000 to 20,000, the bishoprics from fifty-five to over a hundred. And this does not take any account of auxiliaries or coadjutors or vicars-apostolic. Meanwhile the religious orders had grown so rapidly, both with regard to the number of orders working in this country and to the houses they had, that it would be impossible to tabulate concisely what had happened. But taking one fact that will perhaps reveal the extent of the work of organization, the Age of Gibbons closed with about seventy orders of men in the United States, including teaching and nursing Brothers, and about two hundred orders of women." For some reason, this kind of growth leaves Mr. Likoudis unimpressed, determined as he apparently is to prove that things just couldn't have been so good back then. I read the private papers and published writings of many hundreds of pre-conciliar priests for the doctoral dissertation I completed at Columbia University in the year 2000 [and which, by next year, will likely be published as my next book]. What I found was that even more significant than this astonishing growth was the fact that. these priests and religious looked, dressed, spoke, and wrote like Catholics, and Catholics determined to convert America to Catholicism. Converting America to Catholicism-----the very suggestion would elicit either smiles or scorn from the products of the typical seminary or religious order of today, as Likoudis well knows. As for the hierarchy, all one has to do is read some of the correspondence among the bishops in the decades prior to Vatican II. They all sound, well, rather like Bishop Fellay. They speak about the salvation of souls, about protecting the innocence of children, about combating liberalism-----and all this at a time when society was in much better shape than it is today!

Likoudis knows as well as I do the condition of the Church now-----widespread unbelief, heterodoxy, heresy, indifferentism, and much worse. It is a miracle to find an RCIA program that actually teaches the Catholic faith, or a parish that features anything approaching liturgical dignity, or a priest who wouldn't be embarrassed by the Syllabus, if he even knows what it is. Modernism, novelty, systematic desacralization, and all of this as a coherent and internally consistent program-----nothing like this existed before Vatican II, and Likoudis should be honest and sensible enough to admit it.

Desperate to show that the post-conciliar debacle really isn't so unusual, Likoudis asks: "If the Mass of Pius V could work such miracles, why did Sweden, Denmark, England, northern Germany, and half of France reject it? Why did so many Catholics formed by the Mass of Pius V become leading Marxist revolutionaries, such as the architect of Quebec's 'Quiet Revolution,' Fr. George Henri Levesque, O.P., and his disciple, Pierre Trudeau?" It's almost embarrassing to have to point this out, but if Likoudis' argument were valid, then we may as well ask, "If the Catholic Church could work such miracles, why was there a French Revolution? Why were there World Wars I and II? Why has there been such systematic secularization of society for the past several hundred years?"

"We're living in a strange epoch," Likoudis writes, "when thousands of years of civilized behavior -----pleasant things such as respect for parents and elders, piety, simplicity, honesty-----are vanishing. The duty of every Catholic in such times is to pray for the Holy Father, not to dump barrels of corrosive criticism over his every word and gesture." Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Likoudis' assessment of the present age, but this is precisely why the present pontificate has been so disappointing. Especially at a time like this, when civilization itself appears to hang in the balance, nothing less than the full Catholic faith will do. Catholics and non-Catholics alike need to hear Catholicism from the Pope, not ceaseless UN-speak, ecumenism, and the civilization of love.

Under normal conditions, of course, criticism of the Pope would scarcely enter an orthodox Catholic's mind. But Likoudis believes it is, essentially, never justified. "It may well be that many of us may secretly desire that he defrock bishops, send Cardinals into prison ministry, issue anathemas, and so on, but it is not for any of us to judge the Holy Father, not just because we do not know all the things he knows, but because it is simply not the right thing to do-----unless we happen to be St. Bernard of Clairvaux or St. Catherine of Siena."

This argument, which has been repeated endlessly for the past forty years, is apparently about the best the neo-Catholics can come up with. First of all, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux didn't know he was Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, and like all Saints would have indignantly rejected the suggestion. By that standard, then, no one would ever be allowed to criticize the Pope.

More importantly, though, St. Thomas Aquinas nowhere claims perfect sanctity as a prerequisite for speaking out against injustice and abuse at the highest level. To the contrary, St. Thomas says that one who criticizes his superior is not claiming superiority in all things:

"To presume oneself to be simply better than one's prelate, would seem to savor of presumptuous pride; but there is no presumption in thinking oneself better in some respect, because, in this life, no man is without some fault. We must also remember that when a man reproves his prelate charitably, it does not follow that he thinks himself any better, but merely that he offers his help to one who, 'being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger,' as Augustine observes in his Rule quoted above." St. Thomas also defends public rebuke of prelates: "It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter's subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says in Gal. 2: 11, 'Peter gave an example to superiors, that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects'." Not a single American bishop has spoken up against the notorious document released recently against the idea of an evangelical mission to the Jews. This is about as close to apostasy as one can get, and yet the man who is the chief teacher of the Catholic Church has said nothing against it. Souls hang in the balance, and all we get is silence. Is this not a situation in which St. Thomas would obviously defend and even encourage public rebuke of a prelate-----in this case, the Pope? I very much hope Mr. Likoudis does not embarrass himself by attempting to devise some excuse for his papal inaction, for there can be none. Likoudis has no answer at all when non-Catholics want to know what possible reason there could be for the Pope's refusal to take dramatic action-----by personally rebuking and then removing at least the worst of the present crop of bishops-----in response to the present scandals. Am I really expected to tell people that the Pope is immune. from normal standards of behavior because, after all, criticizing him "is simply not the right thing to do"? That reply would need serious improvement even to qualify as lame.

The implication that runs throughout all this analysis is that John Paul really is one of us, that he would like to carry out the wholesale house cleaning that we would all like to see but that circumstances render him helpless to carry it out. In other words, in his beliefs and outlook John Paul is essentially Paul Likoudis, and therefore if he had his way would certainly carry out all the disciplinary actions that Likoudis says we might "secretly" want to see. The flaw in this reasoning, a flaw that renders the whole thesis utterly implausible, is that John Paul is neither Paul Likoudis nor The Wanderer, and really does not feel the way they do about a whole variety of important matters.

As we show in The Great Facade, this Pope has done things that neo-Catholics themselves would never dream of doing, and that they would likely condemn in anyone but the Pope, for whom such actions suddenly become strokes of genius by virtue of his having performed them. He is more enthusiastic about Focolare and the charismatic movement and its attendant hysteria than he is about the movement that seeks to restore the traditional Mass of his own Church. He has quoted favorably from Teilhard de Chardin, whose baneful influence on the Church hardly needs elaboration; he has made scores upon scores of "apologies" for the alleged sins of dead Catholics, a politically correct charade for which The Wanderer condemns other bishops even though they are only following the Pope's example; he has kissed the Koran, the Muslim holy book [thereby permanently scandalizing countless Protestants who, barring a miracle of grace, are now permanently closed to Catholic apologetics]; and he has publicly prayed, "May St. John the Baptist protect Islam."

And this is only the tip of the iceberg. What is it going to take before people like Mr. Likoudis begin to realize that one of the reasons the Pope hasn't moved against certain problems in the Church is that he in fact supports and is the chief example of much of what is wrong? That is a bitter pill to swallow, to be sure, but there is nothing to be gained by pretending otherwise, despite the fact that certain figures within the neo-Catholic establishment have made entire careers out of doing just that. John Paul has an occasional criticism of modern liturgy, for instance, but by and large he celebrates the post-conciliar "renewal," despite seeing, in all his travels, all the indignities and sacrilege that we see. Like any liberal, he is profoundly uncomfortable with the exercise of authority. At least as important, though, is that in his heart of hearts, John Paul is well to the left of Mr. Likoudis-----to say nothing of all his pre-conciliar predecessors. That is simply a fact.

But since Likoudis assumes that the Pope thinks as he does, he and The Wanderer are always at the ready with a ceaseless series of excuses for the Pope's lax governance, or manufactured explanations for the Pope's occasionally scandalous behavior. The problem is, none of these excuses appears to have occurred to the Pope himself, who never accompanies his actions with the disclaimers the neo-Catholics are so ready to provide for him in their exegesis of the latest John Paul novelty.

A priest respected by a great many traditionalists recently revealed to me what he thinks is behind the increasing hysteria and irrationality of recent neo-Catholic commentary. It's pride, he says. It is increasingly obvious that we have been right all along, and they wrong-----dramatically and catastrophically so. But it is difficult for them to admit this to themselves. Instead, they carry on, going through the motions, making up excuses for the present regime that, being intelligent men, they cannot in their heart of hearts honestly believe. As Chris Ferrara and I note in The Great Facade, the typical person we describe as a neo-Catholic accepted the post-conciliar changes in good faith. Our critique of neo-Catholics is not that they are wicked men; on a personal level they can be quite exemplary men. Our point is that they have adopted a position so full of inconsistencies as to be intellectually untenable, and that has made the crisis worse by giving undeserved intellectual cover [by means of the endless supply of excuses for Rome's behavior] to those who are doing the Church such manifest harm. The more of them who begin to see that-----and their number has increased considerably over the past year alone-----the more hopeful we can be about the future of the Church. The principal enemy standing in the way of this happy outcome is pride. Many neo-Catholics have much personal prestige invested in that system. Let us hope that they make the right choice when the realization dawns on them that, ultimately, they must choose between saving face and saving the Church.

Images: Left: St. Bernard with a Cistercian Monk by BERNARDO ZENALE NO DATE, and Right: The Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine Siena by FRANCESACO VANNI, 1602.

Reprinted from the October 2002 Issue of Catholic Family News.

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TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
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To: Polycarp
A General Indult would do wonders to bring some calm and clarity into these muddy and turbulenbt waters, and would take the wind out of the sails of both sides.

Amen. And return the wind to Our Lord. Let His Will be done.

21 posted on 10/18/2002 8:36:28 PM PDT by narses
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To: sinkspur
Check out the 10/10/2002 issue of the Wanderer, NeoCatholic Replies, pg3. In it, James Drummey is told by Fr. R.F.T. that "A priest may never celebrate the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin."

Drummey, or "we" as he always refers to himself, had earlier stated that "a priest can celebrate the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin for only a grave reason, such as the shame or scandal that might be caused if the priest did not say a scheduled Mass for his parishioners."

I'd rather skip that scheduled Mass and drive 150 miles to a Mass offered by a priest in the state of grace.

The Wanderer is progressive.

22 posted on 10/18/2002 8:44:47 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I'd rather skip that scheduled Mass and drive 150 miles to a Mass offered by a priest in the state of grace.

So you assume that the efficacy of the Mass is dependent on the state of the soul of the priest offering it?

That's heresy.

Drummey's right, you're wrong.

23 posted on 10/18/2002 8:57:11 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ultima ratio
This has been a surprisingly disappointing and spiritually empty papacy.

You know better than this. Ever do any house renovations? This Pope inherited a sturdy old house --the best one ever built frankly-- that had been partially renovated, in a particularly unappealing way, in the years since V II. Obviously, the previous occupants had not followed the blueprints for renovation outlined in VII nor taken into consideration the soundness of the historical structure. In fact, in certain respects, they even violated the integrity of certain load bearing walls, and let termites eat away at others. The current occupant has been remiss in removing some of those termites, I admit. For this he will answer to the deed holder of the house.

But neither has his occupancy been solely window dressing! He has made structural improvements which, while we stand here looking at partially completed work, do not seem that important nor that helpful. Furthermore, he has updated features of the house that in some respects needed updated, but to some folks were not necessary. In this respect only the future can tell if these "improvements" really were improvements or just pointless changeorders.

I ask you: what have been the fruits of the past twenty, thirty, forty years?

Though I am a physician by trade, I've done remodeling, and I come from a family of construction workers.

Its hard to visualize how a room or a renovation will take shape, and while the work is ongoing it looks like a bloody mess. And those not familiar with remodeling process often cannot visualize how the rebuilding will look.

Of course, its still the same house, the same property, the same purpose, and the house still fulfills the needs of the deed holder, when the house is finished. It hopefully does it with better efficiency, but not all renovations turn out as good as others. We just have to TRUST that the current builder is following the guidelines of the Grand Architect. We can look at the plans ourselves, and point out obvious problems. But not all are competent to read blueprints, though they might insist otherwise.

Just give me a few positives, something to think about. What are the fruits--in vocations, in theology, in culture, in worldly prestige, in sanctity?

When we remodeled the office space above my office into a home, it looked like hell. You just couldn't imagine that space could turn out as livable space. But it did. You never see the end result till you sweep up the dust and haul away the construction debris. In fact, at the very end, right before all the trash is hauled away and all the dust removed and the finishing work completed, it often looks the worst, and though the end of the project is in sight, the suspense just kills you, and patience wears thin. But with just a little more work, it turns into something grand. And those last efforts are often the hardest.

I know I couldn't have done my project without my dad's help. But he's a contractor with decades of experience.

And my wife couldn't imagine the final outcome at all. She just had no experience to judge it, nor training to understand the plans. Heck, I wasn't sure what I was doing, but I trusted my dad's guidance. In the middle of the project, what else could I do but Trust him, even when my wife, intelligent in her own respect, had serious reservations?

Even our canonizations are questionable now.

Says Who?

I gived you the Keys. What you hold bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven!

Put away your doubts and Trust God instead of the wisperings of men who in their Pride think their Wisdom surpasses that of our Pope.

The house is coming along nicely. We just have to haul out the construction debris, clean up the dust, and call the exterminator for one last SERIOUS extermination.

By the way, the termites know their time is up! That's why they try to eat away as much as they can before the last blast of the Fumigator.

24 posted on 10/18/2002 8:59:34 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: St.Chuck
I honestly don't know, but I never thought the writing style was Likoudis'.
25 posted on 10/18/2002 9:00:39 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: narses
Your ego or His will? Maybe both. God uses broken vessels sometimes. All we must do is tell the truth. In the Book of Job the friends of Job were dishonest, though they said outwardly pious things. Job let his anger rip, though his complaints with God sounded impious to his friends--and the Voice from the Whirlwind praises him for speaking the truth and scolds the others for their pious falsehoods.
26 posted on 10/18/2002 9:00:41 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Polycarp
A General Indult would do wonders to bring some calm and clarity into these muddy and turbulenbt waters, and would take the wind out of the sails of both sides.

Well, I have to agree with sitetest and CatholicGuy. There will be no General Indult; there may be a separate Tridentine Rite and the SSPX may be invited back in under this guise.

I doubt you'll ever have the Tridentine Rite celebrated willy-nilly with the Novus Ordo.

The Novus Ordo is normative, and will remain so. But there will be more places for those desiring the Tridentine Mass to attend it.

27 posted on 10/18/2002 9:02:08 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ultima ratio
This has been a surprisingly disappointing and spiritually empty papacy.

You have to be kidding...
28 posted on 10/18/2002 9:03:30 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: sinkspur
So you assume that the efficacy of the Mass is dependent on the state of the soul of the priest offering it?.

No, I'm just willing do all I can to assist at a Mass offered by a holy priest, a priest in a state of grace. I did not state that I would skip Mass. I'm the one willing to make the drive. Can you at least give me that option?

29 posted on 10/18/2002 9:08:17 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Polycarp
This is absolute nonsense. Do you imagine lurkers haven't been reading the newspapers or watching television? The scandals are on everybody's tongue. And Catholics are now ascribing blame--and this can not be a pretty process. It is absurd to pretend there is unity! There are also Catholic lurkers who feel disenfranchised and who need to understand they are not alone, that others are as angry and as outraged and as indignant with Church leadership for the past forty years as they are! To pretend we are united is an utter falsehood and part of the inauthenticity that permeates Church thinking nowadays. It does nobody any good. We have been split apart just as surely as if a grenade had been tossed in our midst--and it was done by those who robbed us of our Catholic heritage. They are now reaping the nightmarish consequences of their arrogance.
30 posted on 10/18/2002 9:11:36 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish
I'm just willing do all I can to assist at a Mass offered by a holy priest, a priest in a state of grace.

How do you know who is in a state of grace? And, if a holier priest than the priest you want is available, shouldn't you seek him out?

You can do whatever you want, but focusing on the state of the priest's soul is misplaced, IMO.

I'm more concerned about the state of MY soul.

31 posted on 10/18/2002 9:14:59 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ultima ratio
We have been split apart just as surely as if a grenade had been tossed in our midst--and it was done by those who robbed us of our Catholic heritage.

Exactly. Marcel Lefebvre robbed YOU of your Catholic heritage.

"We" are not united, ultima. You're the one who followed a man into schism.

32 posted on 10/18/2002 9:17:37 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Diago; narses; Loyalist; BlackElk; american colleen; saradippity; Polycarp; Dajjal; ...
Ping for a really good article.

Polycarp, I know we disagree about this issue. And I respect your position. My brother who is a good traditional Catholic feels the same way as you do: that inter-necine differences should not be hashed out in public.

But I feel that it is essential to debate these issues, and that FR is an appropriate forum. Personally, I hate the nasty digs and name-calling. But when the issues are discussed in a straightforward manner, I think it will be to the ultimate benefit of the Church. Then again, I could be wrong.

Regarding the other issues, The Wanderer is definitely a neo-Catholic publication. They support every novelty that comes down the pike as long as it comes from Rome and not from the American bishops.

The Wanderer hit piece on Woods and Ferrara was over 2000 words itself. It took up more than half of a full newspaper page. Then they refuse to print a reply from the people who have been libeled with such intellectual comments as "a pile of dung."

Just a few months ago they ran 4 separate articles in 1 issue attacking The Latin Mass Magazine (of which Woods is an associate editor). The articles occupied 3 full newspaper pages. Now who has the thin skin? And who's attacking whom? The words "The Wanderer" had probably never even been printed in the history of The Latin Mass magazine at the time the sneak attack occurred. So there's just no way you can say that the traditionalists started it.

I first came to FreeRepublic when articles I wrote in another venue were posted here. In several cases, replies by Stephen Hand were removed by the moderator. You could tell because replies to the removed posts were still there, and they were addressed to "Editor TCRNews". I didn't complain, I wasn't even registed on FR, and I didn't see the articles here until months later. But someone hit the abuse button and got his comments removed every time. I don't know what his replies said, but I can just imagine what you have to say to have your posts in the Religion forum removed by the moderator.
33 posted on 10/18/2002 9:19:24 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Polycarp
Enough with the house-remodeling analogy. It's lame and unconvincing. By that measure any huge mess can be rationalized. Show me something positive, anything, something other than widespread corruption in the episcopacy, teenagers who stand for the Consecration with their hands in their pockets, nuns who are abortion activists. But don't talk of houses being remodeled.
34 posted on 10/18/2002 9:26:29 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish
No, I'm just willing do all I can to assist at a Mass offered by a holy priest, a priest in a state of grace.

If you are attending an SSPX mass, then you cannot assume that the priest is in a state of grace.

From Ecclesia Dei:"Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law." It would appear that your holy priest is blatantly and unrepentantly giving God grave offence.

35 posted on 10/18/2002 9:28:51 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: sinkspur
>>So you assume that the efficacy of the Mass is dependent on the state of the soul of the priest offering it? That's heresy.

The question is not about the validity of the Mass for the benefit of the congregation. The question refers to the priest himself. And as recent occurrences show us, maybe we need to be more concerned about the spiritual state of priests. Not from the point of view of hypocritical finger-pointing, but from the point of view of realizing that they are also human, they also can sin, and they need spiritual support and guidance even more than lay people.

So the correct answer to the question was that it is always wrong for the priest to celebrate Mass in a state of mortal sin. He is always committing a sacrilege. The Mass is still valid and the congregation can still gain spiritual benefit.

I've seen the same lame answer referring to the "danger of scandal" given to people who ask about going to communion in a state of mortal sin. It's still a sacrilege. Not wanting other people to find out is not sufficient justification for committing a sacrilege.

36 posted on 10/18/2002 9:29:25 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: sinkspur
There can be no coexistence with two different religions. This is the bottom line. The Novus Ordo is not Catholic--and a hundred liberal popes can't make it so. The old Mass is truly Catholic and nothing can change this fact, not even the Vatican.
37 posted on 10/18/2002 9:30:17 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
There are also Catholic lurkers who feel disenfranchised and who need to understand they are not alone, that others are as angry and as outraged and as indignant with Church leadership for the past forty years as they are!

Do you honestly think the trads have a monopoly on feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant?!?

Do you honestly think that just because other faithful Catholics do not embrace the schismatic path that they are any less feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant?!?

Do you honestly think that the rest of us cannot feel disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant without tearing apart the remnant Church with rhetoric that draws into question the entire post-concilar Church?!?

I have been a leader on this forum in expressing the feeling disenfranchised, alone, angry, outraged and indignant. And I have done it without the schismatic excesses of some who use this Forum to further their own agenda that serves in the end to do more damage right alongside the damage already done by the crimes of the priests and malfeasance of the hierarchy.

At least when the average faithful sees a priest sodomizing a teenage boy, they know how bad it is.

When they see a liberal dissenting nun or priest utter heresy, they know how bad it is.

But the whispers of the schismatics tickle the ears, and just sound like they might have merit in this age of chaos and suffering.

Thus our rage at the schismatic trads, because in this day when good faithful Catholics have finally figured out what orthodoxy is, satan has advanced his most subtle snare yet, these schismatic whisperings that sound so tempting, and which in an age of extreme temptations, and worn down defenses, ensnare even the elect in the despair and doubt of their rhetoric, calling into question the very Papacy as well as Ecumenical Councils.

There is just cause for the over reaction of us Papal Trads to the snares of the schismatic trads.

The rhetoric of the schismatic trads is more deceitful and enticing than the acts of any sodomite or words of any liberal dissenting heretic.

To the elect, the whisperings of the schismatic trads presents the greatest threat left to our fractured and suffering orthodox remnant Church.

So do expect to take it on the chin as long as you follow the path you are on.

38 posted on 10/18/2002 9:31:12 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Maximilian
Not wanting other people to find out is not sufficient justification for committing a sacrilege.

But celebrating Mass because it's the only one offered on a Sunday, even if the priest is in the state of mortal sin, is an obligation for the priest. It would be an even greater sin for him to deprive the faithful of the benefits they would gain.

39 posted on 10/18/2002 9:33:18 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ultima ratio
The Novus Ordo is not Catholic.

And John Paul II says it is.

Let's see. Who do I listen to? The successor Peter, or ultima ratio?

40 posted on 10/18/2002 9:36:20 PM PDT by sinkspur
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