God in the Hands of Angry Sinners

Grace Sermons ^ | R.C. Sproul

[CCWoody]

Happy belated 300th birthday Jonathan Edwards.

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[CCWoody]

Ok, non-Calvinists....

I'm standing as part of the wedding party for my in-laws renewal of vows and the Lord takes me off for a private audience and gives me yet another verse which proves that your interpretations of the Bible are not correct. It's rather funny to me as I was quite distracted by all the normal things and keeping my 5 year old looking good in his tux and not turning the whole thing into a giant dressed up play party so I was clearly not expecting this revelation....

What are we Calvinsts told by many of you but that the Lord loves everyone in identically the same way and desires the salvation of everyone without any exception. We are pointed to John 3:16 as proof that this presumption is correct.

Well, granting that presumption and interpretation for the moment, please explain to me how the Lord's great salvific Love, that love which was expressed in His own shed blood, fails for an uncountable number of persons when I read the following verse in my Bible:

• Love never fails.
  (1 Co 13:8)

Woody.

[xzins]

Good find, Woody. Here's a fascinating passage to go with it.

Lamentations 3 31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.

Here's another one:

Jeremiah 12 7 "I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies. 8 My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her

[xzins]

Good find, Woody. Here's a fascinating passage to go with it.

Lamentations 3 31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.

Here's another one:

Jeremiah 12 7 "I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies. 8 My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her

[RnMomof7]

Edwards Bump

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD,
which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he
shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY
ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT
ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

[ponyespresso]

Well, granting that presumption and interpretation for the moment, please explain to me how the Lord's great salvific Love, that love which was expressed in His own shed blood, fails for an uncountable number of persons when I read the following verse in my Bible:

context, context, context

Paul is not talking about God's salvific love in this passage. Paul is setting up the virtue of love as greatest of all things that man is to pursue and abide in.

But of course, Woody, you knew that. And it is obvious since you and your cohorts have exhausted all the passages that can be used to establish Calvinism as the only way to interpret Scripture, it seems that you are now baiting the hook with traditionally non-Calvinist passages just to stir up the waters (and, of course, being the young and naive fish that I am, I have taken the bait...)

It's good to see a Calvinist talk about love however. It seems to happen so little.

pony

[OMalley]

***It's good to see a Calvinist talk about love however. It seems to happen so little.***

wheres the love?

[Gamecock]

We are all about love!

[xzins]

Aren't we all?

Imagine that both George Tiddlywell and Leonidas Blithstomper exist.

In one view God loves both George and Leonidas.

In the other view, God loves George but he hates Leonidas. (This makes sense because George Tiddlywell is elect and Leonidas Blithstomper is not.)

In another view, God loves George but he discounts Leonidas. (This makes sense because George is known to become elect and Leonidas is known not to become elect.)

[Gamecock]

And Leonidas gets his hearts desire.....

[ksen]

(This makes sense because George is known to become elect and Leonidas is known not to become elect.)

Evening xzins, I was perusing this thread before heading off to bed.

I'd just like to say there is no "becoming" Elect, or "not becoming" Elect. You either are, or aren't, due to God's being outside of Time and His Omniscience.

[George W. Bush]

article: Are we feeling like a multitude of people who have nothing but scorn for any ideas about hell and everlasting punishment? Do we consider the wrath of God as a primitive or obscene concept?

Given the sort of entertainment we have today, the sort that would make the most depraved Roman citizen blush, it seems rather odd that so many Christians will reject the idea of hell or a righteous God who will judge them by His holy standard. There is a sense of entitlement, a notion that somehow God really has no right to judge men and cast them into hell.

An excellent article though perhaps it is too brief. It's rather remarkable that a Christian preacher should feel compelled to defend the idea of hell and everlasting punishment.

I think Edwards would not be surprised to see what has happened to the churches if he were alive today.

[xzins]

I care about the accurate description of God.

Each scenario says something different about Leonidas' desire.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Love never fails.

But Woody, you seem to be forgetting how the condemned sinner receives the love of God in hell - as the pain of loss and pain of sense. Rather than seeing God and being enraptured by His love, the sinner sees God and is tormented in infernal flames from His love rejected. God loves the sinner, but the sinner cannot bear the love of God. The torment of the sinner is precisely the love of God towards him.

Everyone will see the glory of God in Christ and reach that degree of perfection one has both chosen and worked for. Following Saint Paul and the gospel of John the Fathers support that those who do not see the resurrected Christ in glory in this life, either in a mirror dimly by unceasing prayers and psalms in the heart, or face to face in glorification, will see his glory as eternal and consuming fire and outer darkness in the next life. The uncreated glory that Christ has by nature from the Father is heaven for those whose selfish love has been cured and transformed into selfless love and hell for those who choose to remain uncured in their selfishness.

Not only are the Bible and the Fathers clear on this, but so are the Orthodox Icons of the last judgment. The same golden light of glory within which Christ and his friends are enveloped becomes red as it flows down to envelope the damned. This is the glory and love of Christ which purifies the sins of all but does not glorify all. All humans will be led by the Holy Spirit into all the Truth which is to see Christ in glory, but not all will be glorified. "Those whom he justified those he also glorified," according to St. Paul (Rom. 8:30). The parable of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham and of the rich man in the place of torment is clear. The rich man sees but he does not participate (Luke 16:19-31).

The Church does not send anyone to heaven or hell, but prepares the faithful for the vision of Christ in glory which everyone will have. God loves the damned as much as he loves his saints. He wants the cure of all but not all accept his cure. This means that the forgiveness of sins is not enough preparation for seeing Christ in glory.

Fr. John S. Romanides, "The Cure of the Neurobiological Sickness of Religion"

[xzins]

Foreknowledge based predestination has the independent choices of the individual's being the basis for God electing them. They are elect because God foreknew they would choose Him via their free will. That's what "KNOWN to BECOME elect means in this instance.

[Gamecock]

***Each scenario says something different about Leonidas' desire.***

Yup, and Leonidas will get exactly what he desires.

[xzins]

Is that strictly true?

In the calvinist scenario, does Leonidas desire judgment and punishment?

[Gamecock]

Here we go again! ;-)

The unregenerate man, in his free will, wants nothing to do with God. He wants to wallow in his sin. That being said, if he dies, he gets exactly what he what he wanted in life...

The regenerate man, in his free will, only wants God, only wants to worship God. In death he gets what he wants: eternal life with God.

The question is, why does one want God, and the other doesn't? Election.

[RichardMoore]

Love never fails, but man does fail to love.