What are we Calvinsts told by many of you but that the Lord loves everyone in identically the same way and desires the salvation of everyone without any exception. We are pointed to John 3:16 as proof that this presumption is correct.Woody.
Well, granting that presumption and interpretation for the moment, please explain to me how the Lord's great salvific Love, that love which was expressed in His own shed blood, fails for an uncountable number of persons when I read the following verse in my Bible:
- Love never fails.
(1 Co 13:8)
Lamentations 3 31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.
Here's another one:
Jeremiah 12 7 "I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies. 8 My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her
Lamentations 3 31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.
Here's another one:
Jeremiah 12 7 "I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies. 8 My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her
context, context, context
Paul is not talking about God's salvific love in this passage. Paul is setting up the virtue of love as greatest of all things that man is to pursue and abide in.
But of course, Woody, you knew that. And it is obvious since you and your cohorts have exhausted all the passages that can be used to establish Calvinism as the only way to interpret Scripture, it seems that you are now baiting the hook with traditionally non-Calvinist passages just to stir up the waters (and, of course, being the young and naive fish that I am, I have taken the bait...)
It's good to see a Calvinist talk about love however. It seems to happen so little.
pony
But Woody, you seem to be forgetting how the condemned sinner receives the love of God in hell - as the pain of loss and pain of sense. Rather than seeing God and being enraptured by His love, the sinner sees God and is tormented in infernal flames from His love rejected. God loves the sinner, but the sinner cannot bear the love of God. The torment of the sinner is precisely the love of God towards him.
Everyone will see the glory of God in Christ and reach that degree of perfection one has both chosen and worked for. Following Saint Paul and the gospel of John the Fathers support that those who do not see the resurrected Christ in glory in this life, either in a mirror dimly by unceasing prayers and psalms in the heart, or face to face in glorification, will see his glory as eternal and consuming fire and outer darkness in the next life. The uncreated glory that Christ has by nature from the Father is heaven for those whose selfish love has been cured and transformed into selfless love and hell for those who choose to remain uncured in their selfishness.Not only are the Bible and the Fathers clear on this, but so are the Orthodox Icons of the last judgment. The same golden light of glory within which Christ and his friends are enveloped becomes red as it flows down to envelope the damned. This is the glory and love of Christ which purifies the sins of all but does not glorify all. All humans will be led by the Holy Spirit into all the Truth which is to see Christ in glory, but not all will be glorified. "Those whom he justified those he also glorified," according to St. Paul (Rom. 8:30). The parable of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham and of the rich man in the place of torment is clear. The rich man sees but he does not participate (Luke 16:19-31).
The Church does not send anyone to heaven or hell, but prepares the faithful for the vision of Christ in glory which everyone will have. God loves the damned as much as he loves his saints. He wants the cure of all but not all accept his cure. This means that the forgiveness of sins is not enough preparation for seeing Christ in glory.
Fr. John S. Romanides, "The Cure of the Neurobiological Sickness of Religion"
Do you get private audiences alot... and do you get them specifically so you can taunt other Christians with an "I'm right and you're wrong -- nana boo" attitude?
Inquiring minds want to know.