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After Falwell, evangelicals at crossroads (younger generation ok with same sex marriage)
MSNBC ^ | May 22, 2007 | Alan Cooperman

Posted on 05/22/2007 7:38:57 AM PDT by NYer

If the Rev. Jerry Falwell personified the Christian right in the past, then the Rev. Frank S. Page may represent its future.

From his Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Va., where his funeral will be held Tuesday, Falwell gave evangelicals a strong political voice. But it was often the voice of a sure and angry prophet, as when he blamed the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, in part on "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians," or described warnings about global warming as "Satan's attempt" to turn the church's attention from evangelism to environmentalism.

Page, 54, was chosen last year as president of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, Falwell's denomination and the country's largest evangelical one, in an election that he saw as a mandate for change.

"I would not use the word 'moderate,' because in our milieu that often means liberal. But it's a shift toward a more centrist, kinder, less harsh style of leadership," Page said. "In the past, Baptists were very well known for what we're against. . . . Instead of the caricature of an angry, narrow-minded, Bible-beating preacher, we wanted someone who could speak to normal people."

With members of an older generation of evangelical leaders, including the Rev. Billy Graham, the Rev. Pat Robertson, psychologist James C. Dobson and the Rev. D. James Kennedy, ailing or nearing retirement, Page is one of many pastors and political activists tugging conservative Christians in various directions.

Others include the Rev. Rick Warren and the Rev. William Hybels, megachurch pastors who are championing the fight against AIDS in Africa. David Barton, head of a Texas-based group called WallBuilders, stumps the nation decrying the "myth" that the Constitution requires separation of church and state.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: apostacy; christianity; evangelical; falwell; homosexualagenda; religiousleft
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past; presently no screen name
Actually, it's you that is taking the narrow view in that you assume that all recreational drug use is somehow problematic for either the drug user or those around him in some way or form. While I certainly know that drug use can be problematic depending on the particular drug involved and the frequency of usage, the simple fact is that for the vast majority of drug users their drug consumption is no more problematic than alcohol consumption is to the average guzzler down at the local tavern, VFW, stadium, living room or bowling alley.

Some food for thought for you. My oldest sister shared your view about drugs until just a few years ago. What changed her mind was the close-up view of drug convicts' families she was exposed to after a new prison opened just south of the town where she taught school. It's a min security prison, housing mostly drug offenders and petty thieves. This brought in a number convicts' families to the area, many in her school district.

You see, she witnessed first-hand for the first time the destruction and hardship the WOD had rained down on these people and concluded that they were not deserving of such treatment. She learned how these folks wound up losing homes and personal property now that the bread winner was unable to make a living, how their credit was ruined for the same reasons, how they lost insurance coverage because Dad had lost his job, not to mention the fact that the wives had lost a loving husband and their children a loving father for several months or years.

They suffered all this for dealing in something that shares the same moral risks and hazards as the "legal" drug alcohol. Had there been no WOD, they wouldn't even have been dealers, just mere consumers. She recognized the inequality these people suffered before law vis a vis the legality of alcohol vs. the criminalization of these other substances. In light of all this, the drug war no longer made any sense to her.

Not that any of this concerns you in the least in that you, in your infinite wisdom and deep concern for the well being of all concerned, just know you have these people's best interests at heart.

You and your ilk focus on the worst-case scenarios, bemoan the tragedy, then extrapolate that worst-case scenario to the entire drug using population, rationalizing your way to prohibition. Then you turn a blind-eye to all the financial and personal damage inflicted on people prosecuted under the laws you support. You ignore the unintended consequences of the WOD, most notably a violent black market and the erosion of constitutional rights and safeguards. You ignore the inherent hypocrisy and double standard that the legality of alcohol poses. You and your ilk do Pontius Pilate proud. Your approach to drug use and drug abuse is akin to the "we had to destroy the village to save it" addage thrown about back during the 60's.

If you can tolerate a father or mother that likes to down a few beers at home or down at the tavern on a regular basis, then surely you can tolerate the same if they smoke a doob or two when the kids are at Aunt Sue's or already gone to bed. Until you're ready to jail consumers of alcohol for the same reasons you want to go after other drug users, please spare me your rationalizations for the tyranny that is the WOD.

121 posted on 05/25/2007 12:22:50 AM PDT by Unknown Pundit
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
I'm not a user nor never was and I thank God for that.

You have to make it tough on the end user, the easier guy to catch, so that you can find and stop the bigger problem -- the dealer.

I believe the opposite. The easy way is not the best - its' only easy. Your method hasn't worked - the drug problem has grown. Like a fish, you cut the stink at the head. This WOD could have been won years ago, IMO, if they solely went after the dealer. It's been widely known many years ago that some cops got some kick back from these dealers - so they just went after the end user for appearance sake. The borders have been/are open, also, that contributed to this mess.

One kingpin could take the place of at least 100 users in jail. I was on a trial where one user was in jail - and he came to testify that this other guy (former user) was there, also. This guy got his time reduced to testify against this guy. This guy got 10 years. He had recently married and had a new baby. Just because this guy 'may have been in the vicinity' of the drug deal was good enough to put him away. Wrong!

All efforts should be concentrated on the kingpin. The church through friends/family can instill hope for the addicted - whether it be drugs or alcohol. By submitting their life to Jesus, strongholds are broken. The anointing breaks the yoke - the power of The Blood! Jail does nothing but destroy. Government took over while the church sat back and did nothing for those addicted. Let the government get the dealer and the church guide/direct the user. If all students were failing in a class, should they be punished or should the teacher be removed?
122 posted on 05/25/2007 5:47:09 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Unknown Pundit

Meant to ping you to #122.


123 posted on 05/25/2007 5:49:32 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
I can see more clearly now ... the gate is narrow and even the very elect will be deceived. As many will proclaim, “Lord, Lord but I did it in Your Name” - the response “I never knew you”. In the latter days, good will be evil and evil good.

The elect, being deceived, will approve of sin and evil cloaked as 'good' (or progressive). Jesus prophesied about some 'falling away' from the faith. Some will be led astray. Some were never faithful in the first place, but pretenders.

We are to stay strong and fear nothing, though. Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

KJV: Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Psalm 2:1-5

124 posted on 05/25/2007 6:09:10 AM PDT by pray4liberty
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To: presently no screen name
Falwell was preaching for correction sake but many took it as condemnation. Jesus said you will be despised in this world for My Name sake and Falwell was despised by many - but not by His Judge!

Falwell, as well as John Hagee and others, preached that man cannot condone what God forbids. That is anathema to the Left, who want to follow the Devil's way, 'I am my own God, I'll do as I will."

125 posted on 05/25/2007 6:15:08 AM PDT by pray4liberty
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To: presently no screen name

No one needs illegal drugs. Solution: Don’t buy and use them.


126 posted on 05/25/2007 6:40:47 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: Unknown Pundit

Life can be lived fully and freely without pot. You make it sound like a need.


127 posted on 05/25/2007 6:42:32 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: presently no screen name
You cannot solely go after the dealer until you catch him dealing (which means catching accomplices helping him deal by buying the product). If you do not find a way to obstruct the money flow, you won't catch him. The customers are not innocent victims being forced to buy. That would be different. They are enabling the dealer. They are his lifeblood. Didn't you ever watch Miami Vice? LOL!

I have witnessed enough substance use and abuse myself to know the guilt is 100% the users guilt. Dealers exist because of the users and not the other way around. How about get both? You act as if the users are innocent victims.

128 posted on 05/25/2007 6:59:59 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I totally agree. And there for the grace of God go I. But the fact remains, the users need support and guidance and need to be led to The Lord for total and complete recovery. He came for the sinner.


129 posted on 05/25/2007 7:36:50 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I totally agree. And there for the grace of God go I. But the fact remains, the users need support and guidance and need to be led to The Lord for total and complete recovery. He came for the sinner because He knew sinners need Him.


130 posted on 05/25/2007 7:37:54 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: pray4liberty
man cannot condone what God forbids

Exactly. And preachers should stress that point when the 'PC' crowd opens their mouth. The preacher is only the messenger.
131 posted on 05/25/2007 7:43:23 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
You act as if the users are innocent victims.

You interpreted my post wrongly because I disagree with your theory. A theory that hasn't worked. It takes two to tango - so take out the main component (music) and the dancers stop. Take out the supplier and give him life - it will be a great example for the rest.

There is no doubt in my mind, the dealers can be caught. Remember the movie (forgot the name) w/Al Pacino who plays the cop. There are dirty cops who got their palms greased by the dealers. And the good cops close their eyes. The WOD is old and not effective because of their approach. They haven't changed it - so that tells me those in command like it this way, it works for them. Where's the Drug Czar? In private business, if something doesn't work - they change it quickly.
132 posted on 05/25/2007 8:00:55 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
I never said the dealers cannot be caught. Targeting all the lawbreakers who buy the goods aids in catching the dealers.

You will never catch 100% of these people. So how do you define success? In order to say it has failed you have to measure it against what would have been had the current policies not been in place, not against perfection.

As for "there but for the grace of God go I," doesn't that apply to the dealer as well? You seem to selectively apply it to suit your tastes. Too often I hear that used as an excuse to overlook wrongdoing. Buying and using illegal drugs starts right out of the gate being a rebellious and intentional act. It doesn't happen to you, you happen to it. My sypathies lie with those who are sorry and seek to change, not with those who just want to eliminate their own consequences while they continue to inflict undeserved consequences on the rest of their friends, family and society as a whole.

133 posted on 05/25/2007 8:33:12 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: presently no screen name

BTW...(while we are multiple posting, lol)....on what grounds can we charge dealers if buying and using drugs is not illegal? Is there any other product that is not illegal to buy or use but is illegal to produce and sell?


134 posted on 05/25/2007 8:48:42 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past; presently no screen name
Life can be lived fully and freely without pot. You make it sound like a need.

Emergency! Emergency! Straw man argument alert... LOL

On a more somber note, in my post I hoped to prick your conscience by relating to you my sister's experiences that led to her switch sides in the WOD. Given your straw man response above, I obviously wasn't successful.

Good day.

135 posted on 05/25/2007 8:57:42 AM PDT by Unknown Pundit
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To: Unknown Pundit
That's not a straw man argument. It is not even an argument. It is a finding of fact.

Anyway, thank you for sharing the story of your sister. I think she was right and now she is wrong.

The theme in most of your posts, at least the way they read to me, is that you do not think these drugs are really very harmful. As long as we disagree on that, there will be no agreeing on how to proceed. You say "this is a better way to fix the problem" but then you say recreational drug usage is really no big deal. That makes your agrument come across less genuine. You don't want a more effective plan to end the drug problem. You want to cease seeing drugs as a problem.

136 posted on 05/25/2007 9:09:35 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
doesn't that apply to the dealer as well

No, because they willing decided to many some quick bucks at the expensive of others w/addictions.

So how do you define success? In order to say it has failed you have to measure it against what would have been had the current policies not been in place, not against perfection.

At the very least, that you have a handle on it. Instead the drug problem has been growing since the 60's - close to 50 years! No decline in site. Wrong method of operation - and the only one that is suffering is the 'user'. From what I heard and read - the dealer doesn't take drugs - it's their livelihood.

My sypathies lie with those who are sorry and seek to change

Mine, also. More want to get off the stuff - they aren't the ones making the money. There are no pluses in it for them.
137 posted on 05/25/2007 9:54:04 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
if buying and using drugs is not illegal?

Who said it wasn't illegal? It's exactly like the illegal aliens - for years the gov't let them slip through. The gov't isn't doing crap out the kingpins or the illegals. When it comes to drugs, they take the proven unsuccessful easy way out - and go after the little guy. Illegal means nothing to the gov't it seems - just fill the jails w/the addicted. Spineless, IMO.
138 posted on 05/25/2007 10:01:18 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
I do not disagree with your motives. I do disagree with your assessment of the situation, your assumptions about the users, and your accusation that law enforcement doesn't even try to prosecute the dealers.

The little guy keeps the big guy in business. Essentially he is the dealer's accomplice. You only have to observe other posters to know that they do not want to stop. They want to use. They see nothing wrong with it. There is sorry and then there is sorry you got caught. Most fall into the second category. The heart of man is deceitful. He tends to lie about his intentions when he is caught doing something wrong. You know someone is really sorry when they actually change their behavior, even if that means getting help with an addiction.

We can agree to disagree and end this thread with your response. I'll read whatever else you want to tell me but I've got nothing else to say on the subject. It is an interesting debate.

139 posted on 05/25/2007 10:28:43 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light..... Isaiah 5:20)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
You only have to observe other posters to know that they do not want to stop. They want to use. They see nothing wrong with it

I haven't read any posters remarks about drugs. This isn't a thread on drugs. I'm not addressing those that want to use drugs. However, alcohol is a drug - so everything is not cut and dry.

your accusation that law enforcement doesn't even try to prosecute the dealers.

I never said they don't 'try'. What I have said over and over, getting the dealer is where the EMPHASIZE should be and it isn't nor has it been ever. If you don't want anyone to use water, you cut off the main supply. Electricity the same. If one wants a program to be REALLY successful, it's not a secret how to eliminate or drastically decreased the element. It's not happening and I don't expect it to. Same w/the illegals trafficking drugs here. They use the same method and are getting the same or worst results. We will all keep on pretending everyone has been and is doing there job, OK?
140 posted on 05/25/2007 1:22:38 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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