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To: AntiKev

The whole replacing neurons with chips thing stands or falls based upon a single idea: that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of matter (brain activity, to be precise). If our essential selves are nothing more than computational processes — if the soul is northing more than software running on the computer called the brain — then there is no reason why duplicating neuronal functions wouldn’t allow us to seamlessly copy our minds into a virtual format.

However, there is as yet no scientific definition of consciousness, and no way of demonstrating that it is a side-effect of brain activity. In fact, there have been several well-documented cases of persons who were born without brains as such, yet who survived and functioned normally. This suggests that there is more to consciousness than mere electrified meat.

In every historical era, the definition of the universe and mind have borne the impression of the major technology of the day. In the clockwork era of the Enlightenment, the universe was a clockwork mechanism; in the Machine Age, the universe became a great machine. Today, in the Information Age, the dominant technology is the computer, and so the best minds all agree that the universe is a computer and the mind a piece of software. Now, it may be that we — alone of all the men who have ever lived — have reasoned our way into the discovery of the One True Nature of the universe and the mind. It may also be that we haven’t. Basing my opinion upon history, I’d tend to side with the latter.

Still and all, the philosophical question remains. If matter, energy, space, and time are all that exists, and if there is neither purpose nor meaning to our existence, we will eventually reach the cosmic So What?. Whether as biologically immortal beings or as uploaded state vectors in some ultimate version of Second Life, we will all eventually encounter the Wall of Futility at the end of the universe. The book of Ecclesiastes, rather than Revelation, may be the true apocalypse.

But I’m optimistic. No matter how fast our computers get, no matter how we manage to cheat death, the fact remains that Jesus lived and rose from the dead. That historical fact cannot be made to unhappen. Since it did happen, it follows that Jesus is God, as He said He was, and that everything else He said is true as well. With this in mind, I trust that God will preserve us somehow, and am therefore not afraid of anything technology might build or science might reveal.

And if He doesn’t? If the Universe really is a meaningless cloth of futility? Then I’ll die, and good for me. I’d rather be dead than an immortal living in a pointless eternity.

The American and European science fiction vision of the future predicts a state of being beyond the comprehension of modern-day humans. This is a very Buddhist mindset: future as Nirvana. Ironically, in Japanese science fiction, the future is basically the same as the present, a finite and comprehensible world, only with cooler toys. This is a very Western version of tomorrow. Why this inversion of futures has occurred, I can’t say, but I do know that deep down I find the Japanese vision of a future world where people still have bodies and smoke cigarettes and have limitations to be much more satisfying than the American/European future where we all become insubstantial ghosts in a great machine.

But that’s just a question of taste. My guess is that underlying sensible reality and the biological mind is an absolute Reaity and and Absolute Mind. I can’t prove it — but my gut says it’s the truth.


15 posted on 10/03/2007 8:15:15 AM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: B-Chan
Still and all, the philosophical question remains. If matter, energy, space, and time are all that exists, and if there is neither purpose nor meaning to our existence, we will eventually reach the cosmic So What?. Whether as biologically immortal beings or as uploaded state vectors in some ultimate version of Second Life, we will all eventually encounter the Wall of Futility at the end of the universe. The book of Ecclesiastes, rather than Revelation, may be the true apocalypse.

But I’m optimistic. No matter how fast our computers get, no matter how we manage to cheat death, the fact remains that Jesus lived and rose from the dead. That historical fact cannot be made to unhappen. Since it did happen, it follows that Jesus is God, as He said He was, and that everything else He said is true as well. With this in mind, I trust that God will preserve us somehow, and am therefore not afraid of anything technology might build or science might reveal.

You're right where you say that the whole idea stands and falls based upon what consciousness is. They say that a dog isn't conscious because he knows he's in a room, but he doens't know that he knows that fact. Whereas humans are self-aware. (Although some would argue that we have no proof of either of those points and a hypothetical "higher being" would consider us to not be self-aware.) So there is a scientific idea of consciousness, but I can't say that there's a definition.

As far as the other stuff goes. My opinion tends to lean towards the fact that we are here, and the odds say that we're not alone. There are too many planets around too many stars for this one to be the only one to harbour life. I also agree with your point, and i often wonder myself, that in the past, science did not jive with what we now consider the body of scientific knowledge. But there is also a largery body of scientific knowledge now than there ever has been in history. We still don't know exactly what it is that makes up the universe and many people spend their entire lives searching for this "stuff". (M. Kaku, S. Hawking, A. Einstein, etc.)

We could also debate the events that happened around 2000 years ago. You call them fact. I accept that there is an element of truth to the story. But I wonder how much of this has been lost and misinterpreted over the ages. But then again, we each go through life with a set of beliefs. Most people get very defensive when their beliefs are challenged, think confronting a liberal with facts...same idea.

20 posted on 10/03/2007 10:51:01 AM PDT by AntiKev ("No damage. The world's still turning isn't it?" - Stereo Goes Stellar - Blow Me A Holloway)
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To: B-Chan
The American and European science fiction vision of the future predicts a state of being beyond the comprehension of modern-day humans. This is a very Buddhist mindset: future as Nirvana. Ironically, in Japanese science fiction, the future is basically the same as the present, a finite and comprehensible world, only with cooler toys. This is a very Western version of tomorrow. Why this inversion of futures has occurred, I can’t say, but I do know that deep down I find the Japanese vision of a future world where people still have bodies and smoke cigarettes and have limitations to be much more satisfying than the American/European future where we all become insubstantial ghosts in a great machine.

And in the Japanese version of the future, maybe we finally get to find out what happens after the last episode of Cowboy Bebop.

22 posted on 10/03/2007 4:58:20 PM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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