Posted on 02/16/2024 12:11:50 PM PST by devane617
“if the appeals court rule against him can he take it to the SC? Simple answer …yes it no? What are his options?”
If the First Appellate Department rules against him he can petition to the New York Court of Appeals (our Supreme Court), which takes even fewer cases than the SCOTUS. However, if the First Department’s decision is 3-2, the Court of Appeals must take his appeal.
Then, he can petition to the US Supreme Court, IF and ONLY IF there is a federal legal question at issue. As some have said, perhaps excessive fines under the 8th Amendment, however, by that point you’re already conceding he should be fined.
The 8th amendment is written pretty broadly. It is not specific to the nature of the crime like the 6th and 7th amendments.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.The term "fines" suggests civil penalties.
Furthermore, the 8th amendment has been incorporated into the states in Timbs v. Indiana which involved an asset forfeiture (a Land Rover) after Timbs was found guilty of a non-felony drug charge.
Further to your question, does the 5th amendment protection against double jeopardy or self-incrimination only apply to criminal cases or do they apply to civil cases as well? If the 5th amendment applies to both types of cases, then why wouldn't the 8th amendment also apply to both types of cases?
It doesn’t work that way. He’ll have to appeal to the First Department, then to the New York Court of Appeals
Except that part of the problem is that the excessive fine was designed to deny President Trump of his right to appeal. Engeron also banned Trump from doing business in New York, which means that Trump cannot go to New York banks to negotiate the collateral to put up a $350 million bond in order to appeal.
Therefore, he must appeal to SCOTUS that his 14th amendment rights to due process and equal protection are being violated by this ruling. He's in a "Catch-22" in that he must post an excessive bond in order to appeal, he cannot find banks with sufficient assets to secure that bond, and he shouldn't be forced to liquidate assets just to be able to appeal an excessive fine.
Hence, SCOTUS is the only avenue for Trump to appeal his due process rights.
-PJ
“How did the lawyers let the case get this far?”
The judge wouldn’t let them do anything.
“Take out the Generals - the troops will falter.”
Field grade officers and senior noncoms are what run the military.... The generals are just figureheads.
Sorry, you CANNOT appeal from a state trial court to the US Supreme Court. There is no way to do it. End of discussion.
Answering your question to me, Fifth amendment double-jeopardy only applies in criminal cases, and then only in cases brought by the same “sovereign.” You can be independently prosecuted by a state and the feds for the same crime. The concepts of res judicata and collateral estoppel are applicable to civil cases. Further, if you refuse to answer a question in a civil case on Fifth amendment self-incrimination grounds, the judge can and will direct the jury that they may infer based on your non-answer that you are refusing to answer because you have committed a crime.
In the 8th amendment, fines are lumped in with bail and cruel and unusual punishment - both criminal concepts.
I fear for Trump and his Family. Next they will demolish Trump Tower, Dig up the graves of his father and mother and dump they into the East River. In New York Trump is seen as worse than Hitler. Before the Convention, I believe that they might try to take out Trump permanently. The powers that control New York will do all they can to rid the nation of Trump and his family.
Every big business will leave New York State quickly. This is a dangerous precedence.
Everyone is focusing on this "trial," but this was the post-trial penalty phase.
IIRC, the judge made a summary judgement based on Letitia James' motion, so President Trump never had a fact-trial to present evidence; he only got to present witnesses for mitigating the penalty.
First, do you agree with this characterization of what happened?
And second, how does a summary judgement in lieu of a trial impact an appeal?
-PJ
“IIRC, the judge made a summary judgement based on Letitia James’ motion, so President Trump never had a fact-trial to present evidence; he only got to present witnesses for mitigating the penalty.”
Yes, that is what I understand happened too. I only gave a glance at the summary judgment order, but it was granted on liability with the trial being for damages, which is not uncommon.
Summary judgment is actually a better appeal than a jury verdict. Remember you can only appeal actions of the judge - you cannot appeal a jury’s verdict (at least not not directly, you could appeal something like a judge’s denial of a motion to throw out a jury’s verdict as unsupported by the evidence, but that’s a hard one). On a summary judgment order, the appeals court will review the case “de novo” - anew, without deference to the trial court’s findings.
-PJ
I know it's been a month, but I'd like to revisit this concept with you.
First, on the "lumping" of clauses implying a limit, boundary, or constraint on its application (e.g., "both criminal concepts"):
The Bill of Rights is full of bundles:
I don't think any conclusions can be made on the scope of the amendment based solely on what was bundled together. To that point, I'd argue that the fine against President Trump of half a billion dollars is so excessive as to be figuratively a de facto death sentence. It was imposed with the knowledge that it was unobtainable, which should make it unconstitutional.
Saying that the 8th amendment only applies to criminal cases because only criminal cases have bail would go against the prior bundling of unrelated protections (e.g., grand jury indictment and takings for public use; freedom of worship and redress of grievances).
Second, I would argue that the 8th amendment doesn't apply to "criminal cases," it applies to the people as an endowed right along with the other endowed rights in the Bill of Rights.
To that point, it's the people who have a protection against excessive fines, period. The right belongs to the person, not to the type of trial being held. The 8th amendment is agnostic on the type of infraction that resulted in the fine. In fact, the word "crime" does not exist in the 8th amendment, implying that 7th amendment civil findings of "liable" are also covered by the 8th amendment right of the people to be protected from the imposing of "excessive fines."
-PJ
Meanwhile, every time the topic of jury service is raised on this forum, "FReepers" brag about how they "cleverly" avoided jury service ...
The corrupt:
. . . who looked the other way - REPEATEDLY - as young children were human-trafficked to sexual destruction.
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