Federalism or Teddy Roosevelt: You Can Only Pick One: Trump’s supporters should be careful not to saddle him with the legacy of a man who did everything to undermine the Constitution

American Greatness ^ | 04/13/2024 | Stephen Soukup

[ProgressingAmerica]

"For examples, in 1912, all four parties supported ratifications of both the 16th and 17th Amendments.

This is bizarrely insane. One of those four was TR/Bull Moose Progressive.

Either TR was on-board for the graduated tax, or he was not. You stand on both sides here, attacking at the sheer mention of it but now you admit it. You need to choose.

Am I only allowed to talk about it when BroJoeK approves?

"I'm still saying the same thing -- you're reading backwards

I'm reading forward. From 1900 to 1920. I've been reading forward with these specific numbers for 15 years.

[ProgressingAmerica]

"Auschwitz"

More bizarre items.

It is clear you have no idea of the rotten things the eugenicists did right here in the US during the Progressive Era, from the Kallikak Family, to the Jukes, and even Buck v. Bell. I read forward, which is why I know about Kallikak, Jukes, etc.

This would get easier if you stopped making assumptions and simply looked at what is being said.

[BroJoeK]

ProgressiveAmerica: "This is bizarrely insane.
One of those four was TR/Bull Moose Progressive.
Either TR was on-board for the graduated tax, or he was not.
You stand on both sides here, attacking at the sheer mention of it but now you admit it.
You need to choose.
Am I only allowed to talk about it when BroJoeK approves?"

No, FRiend, you need to choose -- choose sanity over luni-talk.
You claim Teddy Roosevelt is to blame for the 16th & 17th Amendments when the simple fact is that, in 1912 all four political parties supported both ratifications, none opposed it.
Roosevelt's Bull Moosers received roughly 1/4 of the popular vote in 1912, so we might say they are 1/4 to blame for ratification of the 16th and 17th amendments.

That leaves about 75% of the blame on Democrats (Wilson), Republicans (Taft) and Socialists (Debs), all of whom also supported ratifications.

ProgressiveAmerica: "I'm reading forward.
From 1900 to 1920.
I've been reading forward with these specific numbers for 15 years."

So, let's see if we can separate facts from fiction.
These are some of the facts:

1. Eugenics' peak popularity lasted from roughly 1890 to 1930, corresponding rather well to Teddy Roosevelt's adult life, which ended in 1919.

2. If we measure eugenics by forced sterilizations, then 17 states never legalized forced sterilizations -- Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas and Wyoming.
   I see no regional or political bias in this list.

3. Of the 31 states which legalized forced sterilizations, 13 did so during Teddy Roosevelt's lifetime: Alabama, California, Connecticut, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

   

4. 18 states legalized forced sterilizations after 1920, the last one being South Carolina in 1938.

5. Already by 1935, three of the states which had previously legalized sterilizations, had again outlawed them -- New York (1920), Pennsylvania (1931) and Alabama (1935).

6. By 1960, nine more states which had previously legalized sterilizations again outlawed them.

7. In 1927, the US Supreme Court in Buck v Bell found (8-1 Holmes) sterilizations to be constitutional in Virginia.
   In 1942, in Skinner v OK, SCOTUS unanimously (9-0 Douglas) abolished some forms of forced sterilization, and the US Congress passed laws in 1973 and 1990 which effectively abolished all forced sterilizations.

Bottom line is that Eugenics, as an idea, had its decades in the sun, when it was considered to be "smart", "progressive" and making common sense.
During this era 31 states (with roughly 62% of the US population) legalized forced sterilizations

17 states never did legalize it, and already by 1920, New York had abolished its previous legalization.

Regarding Teddy Roosevelt, I can find no evidence to support suggestions that:

1. TR's views were in any way outside the pro-eugenics mainstream of his time.

2. TR's support was instrumental in passing any of the 31 state sterilization laws.

3. TR, or any other major politician of that time realized the full moral, legal, scientific and practical implications of eugenics laws in the USA, much less as abused in later years in places like Nazi Germany.

[BroJoeK]

ProgressingAmerica: "Auschwitz"
More bizarre items.

"It is clear you have no idea of the rotten things the eugenicists did right here in the US during the Progressive Era, from the Kallikak Family, to the Jukes, and even Buck v. Bell.
I read forward, which is why I know about Kallikak, Jukes, etc."

I don't think anything which happened in the USA, relating to eugenics, in any way compared to events in places like Nazi Germany, which applied those ideas to their own circumstances.

And regardless, there is no evidence that any of this was intended by Teddy Roosevelt.

ProgressingAmerica: "This would get easier if you stopped making assumptions and simply looked at what is being said."

And there it is -- your exact problem, projected onto me.

What can I say?

[ProgressingAmerica]

You claim Teddy Roosevelt is to blame for the 16th & 17th Amendments when the simple fact is that, in 1912 all four political parties supported both ratifications, none opposed it.

He is to blame, because that's his record as President. He also supported the death tax.

None of this has changed since we discussed it last time, here: https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4198052/posts?page=51#51

Theodore Roosevelt revived the Income Tax in the 1906 State of the Union Address, and then made sure his henchman Taft went out there and started up the Constitutional Amendment in congress. Here, listen to the address yourself, and I'll clip the text at the bottom. He spent a lot of time on his passion for soaking the rich, this was important to him. He brought up the Income Tax AGAIN in his 1907 SOTU, because like a stuck-up punk Progressive, he wasn't going to just let it go. The income tax WAS going to happen. And it did. Roughly 5 years later - 16th amendment was here. Thank you Theodore friggin Roosevelt.

https://librivox.org/state-of-the-union-addresses-by-united-states-presidents-1901-1908-by-theodore-roosevelt/

The only wiggle room you've got is to scapegoat Taft. That's it, those are the two choices because that's what the timeline and the history support. It's either TR or Taft, who was operating as TR-mini-me at the time. The speech:

In addition to these there is every reason why, when next our system of taxation is revised, the National Government should impose a graduated inheritance tax, and, if possible, a graduated income tax. The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government. Not only should he recognize this obligation in the way he leads his daily life and in the way he earns and spends his money, but it should also be recognized by the way in which he pays for the protection the State gives him. On the one hand, it is desirable that he should assume his full and proper share of the burden of taxation; on the other hand, it is quite as necessary that in this kind of taxation, where the men who vote the tax pay but little of it, there should be clear recognition of the danger of inaugurating any such system save in a spirit of entire justice and moderation. Whenever we, as a people, undertake to remodel our taxation system along the lines suggested, we must make it clear beyond peradventure that our aim is to distribute the burden of supporting the Government more equitably than at present; that we intend to treat rich man and poor man on a basis of absolute equality, and that we regard it as equally fatal to true democracy to do or permit injustice to the one as to do or permit injustice to the other.

Just as an aside, just listening to how he speaks is sickening. "The National Government" ... "owes a peculiar obligation to the State" ... This sort of linguistic verbal diarrhea is exclusively progressivistic. Conservatives do NOT worship The State this way. Yeah, soak the rick that's "a spirit of entire justice and moderation." What a crock. What an insult.

[ProgressingAmerica]

"And there it is -- your exact problem, projected onto me."

You keep bringing it up though. This is twice now with the Nazis, something I never said. I only mentioned his original letter as an example, that's it.

My preference is to discuss the things you've shown clear fear of, staying away from such as "Who gave us the FBI?"

TR was only president for basically 7.5 years. I have a lot of material to work with. You're clearly terrified of his domestic record.