Greeks, Turks and Bulgarians, are they related?

http://www.florina.org/html/books/kinship/kinship.html | Dr. George Nakratzas

[Lions]

This discussion always seems to be simmering.

Greeks, Turks and Bulgarians, are they related?

[Lions]

Hey you guys, this is definately another hot and debated balkans topic.

[TomT in NJ]

We're all related ultimately. By the way, as a Turk I find this book to be rather silly.

[muawiyah]

These guys do tend to use this stuff on each other don't they?

Still, within the last few days I have read on FR several times the idea that Egyptians were "replaced" with Arabs in the Dark Ages, as were all North Africans, Sudanese, etc.

Someone else posted the idea that the Seljuk Turks racially replaced the various populations they overran in Anatolia.

The truth is most ancient populations were never simply replaced by invading populations. Instead the existing and conquered people were put to work paying taxes to a new gang. The Seljuks had a Central Asian language that proved popular, but their top leadership in the 11th Century all had Celtic names - that is, all good "Greek" names.

Intriguingly, many Arabs look like the ancient Egyptians. Wonder how that happened?

Never foroget, "One man's Mede is another man's Persian". It's not just a pun - it is a fundamental truth.

[Lions]

Intriguingly, many Arabs look like the ancient Egyptians. Wonder how that happened?

You mean the long ridged nose that is pretty common amongst ancient egyptians eg)Tutankamen. You are right in saying that. I also have a few Greek friends that look like egyptians or should I more say Arabic/Turkic. They tend to have that skin complexion and bone structure.

Maybe there is some truth in that book!!!!!!

[Mike Darancette]

There has historically been so much back and forth movement caused by wars and migrations in that area of the world that most peoples are related to some extent.

Are we talking European Turks or those S. of the Bosporus; Eastern Greeks or Western Greeks?

[muawiyah]

Who can really know anymore?

One characteristic we share with our supposed nearest ape relatives and that is that we swap women.

That Middle Eastern gene pool is pretty universally shared by everybody over there.

[tracer]

Yes, but not by design, for the most part. And they never wil admit it....

[tracer]

Or are we talking about a fully-laden Greek swallow or a Turkish swallow??

[Lions]

I think Dr George Nakaratzas is refering to mainland Greeks.

Below is an interesting link that was sent to me by a Greek himself. Its a DNA study that was done in spain. Link is here

[Spar]

Greeks not DNA related to Turks or Arabs tests show.

Genetic tests shed light on biblical body

Monday, 15 October, 2001, 22:19 GMT 23:19 UK

The two teeth have been dated back to between AD 72 and AD 416 Image copyright: National Academy of Sciences, US

By BBC News Online's Helen Briggs DNA tests on a body said to be St Luke's provide some evidence of authenticity.

Genetic analysis suggests that whoever is buried in the tomb did come from Syria, which, according to historical records, was the birthplace of the evangelist.

One of the gospels is attributed to St Luke, a physician who followed the apostle Paul on some of his missionary journeys.

Legend has it that St Luke came from the ancient city of Antioch, which in Roman times belonged to Syria, and died in Thebes, Greece, around AD 150, at the age of 84.

It is thought that St Luke was first buried in Greece, before being moved to Constantinople in Turkey around AD 300, arriving at his final resting place in Padua, Italy, about a thousand years ago.

According to radio carbon dating, the body belongs to a person who died between AD 72 and AD 416.

Thus, it is conceivable that the remains could have been replaced by those of another person, from Greece or Turkey, at some point on its journey.

Ancient teeth

Scientists in Italy were asked by the Bishop of Padua some years ago to find out what they could about the body said to be St Luke's.

The tomb in the basilica of St Justina was opened by a committee led by the Bishop and two teeth removed.

DNA extracted from the teeth suggests that whoever is buried in the lead coffin placed inside a marble sarcophagus was not Greek.

Although the most likely explanation is that the person came from Syria, experts cannot rule out the possibility that a Turkish individual was placed in the tomb when it was moved to Constantinople.

Because Turkey and Syria are geographically close, the two populations are unlikely to differ much genetically and thus are hard to distinguish.

Past lives

Guido Barbujani, who led the study, told BBC News Online: "We can be confident that the body does not belong to an individual who came from Greece.

"We cannot rule out the possibility that the body belonged to an individual who came from Turkey."

DNA could not answer the question of whether the body was really that of a saint, he said, but could establish where that person came from.

"We can identify important features of the human past by studying samples coming from ancient bones," he told BBC News Online. "A piece of DNA can often attribute an individual to a continent but not to a sub-continent or country unless you have a specific hypothesis to test."

To answer the question of where the body came from, Dr Barbujani, of the University of Ferrara, Italy, and colleagues at the universities of Florence, Geneva, Rome and Calabria, collected DNA samples from modern Greek, Turkish and Syrian citizens.

Good Samaritan

They examined the individuals' mitochondrial DNA - the scraps of genetic material found in cell structures known as mitochondria - and compared it with DNA extracted from the teeth.

Genetic markers show the body is three times more likely to have a Syrian than a Greek origin.

The patron saint of physicians and artists, St Luke is said to have been the author of the gospel attributed to him in the Bible. This includes the well-known parables of the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son, and also tells the Christmas story of the angels appearing to the shepherds.

Luke joined St Paul on some of the missionary journeys which are documented in the Bible, in the book The Acts of the Apostles. St Luke's feast day is on Thursday, 18 October.

[Spar]

DNA Test GIGO. The DNA test linked is designed to look for alleles linked to the immune system and that are highly mutatable. The linkage shown in that Spanish survey has to do with populations from different parts of the world that evolved to deal with living enviornments that have high rates of malaria. No ethnic linkage can be made using that DNA test.

THE ONE BENEFICIAL MUTATION

No, there are many more than just one. There's also the thallasemias and CF alleles, just to name a few.

Yes, evolutionists have one beneficial mutation that they can cite as proof that positive, helpful mutations do occasionally occur.

Actually, scientists don't like to use the word "proof" as it is not the objective of science to prove anything, but instead, science is about the accumulation of evidence that leads to logical and rational conclusions that explain and make predictions about the natural world. However, science does have great utility for disproving things, such as creation science.

It is sickle-cell anemia, which is a mutation which occurred in someone in Africa centuries ago. Was that mutation beneficial? Far from it; it damaged the red blood vessels so they became quarter-moon shaped instead of round.

No, it's red blood cells, not vessels.

This produced a special type of anemia. The person with sickle-cell anemia cannot properly absorb food and oxygen.

How then can anyone call that mutation beneficial?

Well, the evolutionists do it on the basis of the fact that people with sickle-cell anemia are less likely to contract malaria from mosquitoes!

Really now, that is begging the question! If I had bulbar polio, I would be less likely to be killed in an auto accident because I would be paralyzed on a bed and less likely to be riding in a car. But one would not say that polio was, for that reason, beneficial!

First of all, polio is not a genetic disease, it's an infectious disease (caused by a virus).

Secondly, you have a failed understanding of genetics. Sickle cell anemia arises when an individual is homozygous mutant at the hemaglobin locus (HbS/HbS). Sickle cell trait is when one is heterozygous (HbA/HbS), while normal individuals are homozygous wildtype (HbA/HbA). Those who are S/S will, in all likelyhood, die from complications of sickle cell anemia before they reach reproductive age. Those who are wildtype A/A don't get sickle cell anemia, but they have a higher risk of contracting cerebral malaria, which is almost always fatal. Those, however, who are heterozytous A/S do not get sickle cell anemia AND when they do get malaria it almost never progresses to cerebral malaria (because the oxygen tension in the red cells prevent the malarial parasite from efficiently completing its life cycle and also reduces infectivity) and they seldom die from malaria. If you do the math you find that the fitness in the malarial belt is:

sickle-cell trait (A/S) = 1.00
normal hemaglobin (A/A) = 0.90
sickle cell anemia (S/S) = 0.14

(where 1 is best chance of survival, 0 would be worst chance of survival). So, you see, this is a beneficial mutation because those who are heterozygous (50%) are the most likely to be reproductively successful than those who are homozygous (25% each A/A and S/S). We know from genetic studies that the HbS allele occurs at about 20-30% in the malarial belt of Africa.

In return for the advantage of being 25 percent less likely to contract malaria, 25 percent of the children of people, in Africa, with sickle-cell anemia will die! What advantage is that? pp. 21, 23.

This statement is in error as I have demonstrated.

Also, the theory of evolution would predict that in the absence of malaria, the sickle cell allele (HbS) would decline and possibly disappear from a population (because the allele itself is poorer at oxygen carrying than is the normal allele, HbA). Is this testable? Sure! Two experiments could be conducted to examine this prediction.

The first experiment would be to simply eliminate the malarial parasite from a population carrying the sickle-cell allele. Although this appears simple, it is much more challenging than it sounds. If you eliminated the agent that exerts a positive pressure on the allele, the allele should become less frequent during subsequent reproductive cycles.

The second experiment would be to remove a population of Africans from an environment where malaria is endemic. Since the pressure to maintain the sickle-cell allele would disappear, its frequency should also become less.

Has either of these experiments been done? Well, yes - sort of. When the slave trade was occurring 400 years ago, Africans were brought to the west, and they were indeed removed from the malarial environment (as cerebral malaria hasn't been a problem in the US). What's the frequency of the sickle-cell allele in those Americans of African descent? Why, it's down to 8% and continuing to decline.

This is evolution.
This is a fact.

[mamelukesabre]

Maybe some of the current peoples living in these modern day nations are related, but that was definitely not the case a thousand years ago. The turks were originally a mongoloid race, and that is definitely not even close to greeks and bulgarians. I have met some persians that appear to have slightly oriental facial features, but never a turk that appears this way. So apparently the turkish peoples have changed alot over the centuries.

Scientists have estimated that everyone on the planet is AT MOST 50th cousins, and that there is a very high probably that any two randomly selected people are much much closer related than that.

Sorry, I don't have a reference for that last comment. It comes from memory and I heard it on a PBS documentary years ago.

[Lions]

The linkage shown in that Spanish survey has to do with populations from different parts of the world that evolved to deal with living enviornments that have high rates of malaria. No ethnic linkage can be made using that DNA test.

The Spanish Survery is self explanitory. Please have another read of it if you are having troubles understanding it.

[Lions]

The turks were originally a mongoloid race, and that is definitely not even close to greeks and bulgarians.

Check out the below link. It quite a good read. It explains that the Turks and Greeks although are not completely related, but come from the same area (present day Ethiopia)which suggests that they have alot similarities. Its a scientific DNA research that was conducted in spain.

LINK

[Spar]

The turks were originally a mongoloid race, and that is definitely not even close to greeks and bulgarians.

FYROM Prime Minister Ljupce Georgijevski (Ethnic Bulgarian)

Sultan Celebi Mehmed (Mohammed I) (Ethnic Turk)

[Lions]

Correct me if I am wrong. The 2 pictures are completely different. The top photo shows the Macedonian president. His eyes are downwardly slanted, straight nose and a roundish face. These features are not Turkic or Mongolian as you are trying to impede. The painting of the Sultan, clearly shows the upward slanted almond shaped eyes, long hooked nose and a longer face which is very common amongst those races of arabic/Turkic descent.

You have no idea what you are talking about and it looks like you are acting on emotions. I think that your posts are childish and you should not participate in this again.

Mamelukesabre, ignore Spar, he is a FR Pest.

[cptVimes]

The modern Bulgarians are the descendants of several ethnic groups, there is no pure Bulgarians present in the country Bulgaria. The Bulgarian tribe that settled in the Balkans mixed with the already present Slav and Traki tribes and then all the others passing trough the region added a litlle bit here and a bit there to be were they are now.

[Spar]

As are their Bulgarian origin brothers the majority people of the nation of FYROM.

[Lions]

As are their Bulgarian origin brothers the majority people of the nation of FYROM.

Spar like I said to you in post 17, you should not participate in this discussion. Your comments are invalid and have no grounds. You refer to propaganda as your saviour. And above all, you are childish and immature.

You are a pest and I wonder if you have come to terms with you ethnicity.

cptVimes, just to give you a little background on SPAR, he is having troubles comming to terms that he is not a pure Greek as he claims he is. He has in previous topics claimed that he is a Pontian from Turkey and thinks its the same as comming from mainland Greece/Athens. Do you have any comments. Because of his inferiority complex, he tries to brand others.