The Fall of the Roman Empire Revisited: Sidonius Apollinaris and His Crisis of Identity

Published by the Corcoran Department of History at the University of Virginia. ^ | 2-1-03 (Volume Thirty-Seven) | By Eric J. Goldberg

[vannrox]

An interesting Read.

[Mike Darancette]

Bump for later

[I_Love_My_Husband]

bump for later reading

[Tokhtamish]

A very interesting read.

I see in it why Arianism died out in the West. It was the religion of the 'treaty breakers', the Goths, and why Gothic rule turned out to be so fragile in both Italy, Gaul, and Spain.

The Goths were the most civilized of the barbarian nations, far more so than savages like the Franks. Emperor Theodosius had a policy, and clearly represented a faction of which the young Sidonius had been a part, of thinking the Goths could be peacefully absorbed into the Roman Empire. But Gothic ambition could not be contained by the crumbling empire. When appeasement fails, the result is fury for having been a fool. Gothic 'betrayal' of Roman trust created a legacy of bitterness between Roman and Goth which made their kingdoms in Italy and Gaul/Spain 'conquest zones' and nothing more.

When the savage but orthodox Franks appeared on the scene, one battle, one Frankish victory pushed the Visigoths out of Gaul entirely into Spain. When the Moors appeared one battle, one Muslim victory, destroyed the Visigothic kingdom.

[FateAmenableToChange]

The changing identification analysis as an explanation for the fall of the empire raises intriguing questions for the potential of the American "empire" (i.e., the diverse conglomerations of cultures that live in the U.S.) to do the same.

[weikel]

I generally agree with Gibbon's intrepratation except for one thing. Theodosius "The Great" was a disaster for the Empire. He practiced a policy of appeasement( we won't even get into his Christian fanaticism which among other things he allowed a fanatical Archbishop to destroy the Great Library of Alexandria) which caused the Empire in the West to fall shortly after his death. The Ostrogoths and Theodoric's Visigoth's were fairly enlightened rulers. The Visigoth's in Spain generally were not. The Franks were savages but they tried the real destroyers were the Picts, Lombards, Spanish Visigoths, and Vandals( the Vikings later on Charlemagne almost managed to engineer a recovery but the Vikings stopped that after his death, then the Catholic church after the Viking invasions decided that it should rule Europe and horde knowledge which caused other problems).

[dix]

I get so much information from my freeper pals, and I really do appreciate it. We have to be some of the most informed people in the country.

[Cicero]

This makes sense to me. Excellent article. Gibbon was blinded by Enlightenment rationalism and anti-Christian animus. What's obvious on the largest scale is that Rome fell and Christian Europe rose in its place. The displacement to the north was due to the rise Muhammed and the spread of Islam through North Africa and Asia.

What gave Europe its fundamental identity and held it together was the Church, as Christopher Dawson has argued so well.

[stuck_in_new_orleans]

The changing identification analysis as an explanation for the fall of the empire raises intriguing questions for the potential of the American "empire" (i.e., the diverse conglomerations of cultures that live in the U.S.) to do the same

I'd expect the fall of the "American empire" to be the result of a nuclear explosion in D.C. rather than diversity in American cities

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Cicero]

One explanation for the fall of the Western Roman Empire was higher and higher taxes and ever-expanding bureaucracy. Another factor was internal faction and what might be called party politics. Although there were barbarian incursions and invasions, they were prefaced by internal weaknesses.

If the American Empire falls, it will likely be caused by higher taxes, more government bureaucracy, a creaking, overloaded economy, and factional politics where seizing power becomes more important than serving the country.

The American constitution enables a certain resiliency in the face of partisan politics, but there is presumably a limit, which we have already seen tested under clinton and his scumbag supporters. There's no assurance that another clinton may not rise to power. There were certainly more than enough bad Roman emperors.

[quebecois]

I agree with your comments completely. In essence, barbarian tribes with high levels of population growth moved into the Western Empire (which had a stagnant population). The barbarians had a different culture and a different religion. At first, the elites of the empire thought that they could cohabitate with the newcomers and eventually absorb them into Roman culture. By the time they found out the truth, it was too late.

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

It will be faction. The authors of The Federalist Papers saw faction as a leading threat. (I forget which particular author). We are becoming like Czechoslovakia. What a mess!

[DeaconBenjamin]

The story that Theophilus destroyed a library is clearly a fiction that we can very precisely lay at the door of Edward Gibbon. It is in his monumental Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire that we first find the allegation made. Gibbon seems mainly concerned to clear the Arabs of the responsibility of destroying the library and allows his marked anti-Christian prejudice to cloud his better judgement. His excellent footnotes show he had exactly the same sources as we do but drew the wrong conclusions.

From The Mysterious Fate of the Great Library of Alexandria
http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

[weikel]

The Arabs destroyed the last of it and Julius Caesar destroyed part of it( not intentionally) during the siege of Alexandria. Im not ready to clear the mob led by the Bishop of Alexandria of all blame are you saying that mob didn't exist?

[JudyB1938]

It will be faction. The authors of The Federalist Papers saw faction as a leading threat.

You made an excellent observation, one which people should pay more attention to.

"Faction" is an important term that is defined as: "a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking".

Not only can it be applied to our political leaders, it can also apply to illegal immigrants. America is in danger from both groups.

However, I believe the main reason for concern is because we have lost our way as a God-fearing nation and ignored warnings given by the Jonahs in our midst.

[Diana Rose]

bump for later

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

The only question is when. Probably a bit of time-at least not in my lifetime.(absent some large stressor such as a nuke in DC. The occurrence of this latter contingency will probably result in the immediate disintegration of our political and social structures.)

[Fiddlstix]

Bump

[Red Jones]

bump