Posted on 12/25/2005 11:30:34 PM PST by jecIIny
Excommunicated priest holds ‘illicit’ Mass Hundreds attend service in St. Louis despite Church objections The Associated Press Updated: 5:11 p.m. ET Dec. 25, 2005
ST. LOUIS - At least 1,500 people attended Christmas Eve Mass presided by an excommunicated Roman Catholic priest, despite warnings from the archbishop that participating would be a mortal sin.
The Rev. Marek Bozek left his previous parish without his bishop’s permission and was hired by St. Stanislaus Kostka Church earlier this month. As a result, Bozek and the six-member lay board were excommunicated last week by Archbishop Raymond Burke for committing an act of schism.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I would also remind you that this tete-a-tete between thee and me did not begin with my attacking you or your beliefs or affiliations, if any, but rather with you attempting to mug my Church which is none of your business. In doing so, you entered a no-Kumbaya zone.
Points well made and certainly conceded. It is noinetheless a pleasure to see an archbishop display backbone in the face of defiant disobedience by those who excommunicated themselves by their gross misbehavior.
In any event, do you suppose that the St. Stanislaus Garrison of the excommunicated schismatics will, if unrepentant, go to hell because they were excommunicated by Archbishop Burke or because they die in a state of unrepented mortal sin?
As a Roman Catholic in communion with my own diocesan bishop and with the Holy See, I tend to the latter as the far more likely probability. The downside of the divine gift of free will is the individual's ability to earn an eternity in hell.
You still apparently do not know who's Church it is. It is not your Church or your Pope's - it is the Church of Jesus our Savior.
I can tell you that whatever damage Swaggert and Bakker may have done, they did no damage whatsoever to the Roman Catholic Church to which neither has ever belonged.
When Swaggert and pedophile priests live in sin and bring shame on themselves they are not sinning against the RC Church or the Assemblies of God they are sinning against God Himself, no other. The damage that they bring is to Christ's Church - His Bride. Whatever your parochial inclinations are they are irrelevant to addressing the damage that these men - shepherds of Christ's flock - bring corporately to Christ's Church. As to the Bishop's move on the parish's assets - I could care less.
***that doesn't pass the smell test***
Some think that being "Catholic" means to lose the sense of smell.
"Some think that being "Catholic" means to lose the sense of smell."
Some think that Elvis is alive and riding around in UFOs.
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with heavenly glory.
So with this example you use, is Paul actually writing to those who have not obtained salvation yet as indicated?
The unjust are those who do unjust things, such as the sins which he then proceeds to list. He's clearly warning the Corinthians not to backslide into the sins that they were doing before.
I agree with you on this, but there is nothing about losing their salvation. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to gain salvation by NOT sinning. The requirement is not to be PERFECT (which is exactly what you're saying)through NOT sinning, it's to be perfect through Christ, who God's sees in our stead.
If you're correct then all of us have to be sinless and believe in Christ at the same time to gain our salvation. So it eventually has to come down to YOU being GOOD enough to get into heaven, not Christ...
I wonder how many sins you and I are committing without even knowing it? So therefore, according to what you're saying, we have lost our salvation?
Yes, Paul is writing for those who have not yet obtained "the salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with heavenly glory," that is, the glorification of the elect in heaven. Rom. 8:30: "whom he justified, them he also glorified."
I think you're probably suggesting that he's not writing for the benefit of the faithful, though. That's not right at all. 2:10 and 14 taken together show that this counsel is meant for the "elect," that is, the faithful already gathered into the Church. There is no other possible antecedent for "them."
The requirement is not to be PERFECT (which is exactly what you're saying)through NOT sinning, it's to be perfect through Christ, who God's sees in our stead.
No, this is the doctrine of imputation, which was invented by Luther et al. in the 16th century. Scripture teaches that Christ makes us righteous through the merits of his sacrifice, so that we become really righteous (see, e.g., Rom. 5:18-19: "by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life ... by the obedience of one, many shall be made just"). After this transformation, which is called adoption as sons of God or justification, we can fulfill the law through the grace of God (see Rom. 8:1-4: "That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us," etc.) So we are not righteous "through Christ whom God sees in our stead," but "through Christ who makes us just and assists us with his grace."
I wonder how many sins you and I are committing without even knowing it? So therefore, according to what you're saying, we have lost our salvation?
No, after justification, the Christian can live without sin (that is, without mortal sin) through the grace of God. As the Council of Trent declared: "no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true." (Decree on Justification, cap. xi.)
You may be referring to "venial" sins, which the just do commit, but these are called "sin" only analogously, as they are not against any commandment (that is, not 'contra legem') but are only at variance with, or not in accordance with, the law ('praeter legem'). They do not turn a man away from God, as mortal sin does. See St. Thomas, I-II q. 88 a. 1.
Alright, so there's some sins that CAN be committed and some which absolutely can not...
You may be referring to "venial" sins, which the just do commit, but these are called "sin" only analogously, as they are not against any commandment (that is, not 'contra legem') but are only at variance with, or not in accordance with, the law ('praeter legem'). They do not turn a man away from God, as mortal sin does. See St. Thomas, I-II q. 88 a. 1.
Look, you're obviously a good Catholic, and for all I believe a good Christian, but please, there is nothing about what you're saying I can agree with or relates in context to the scripture...I know where this, "You can lose your salvation" comes from, but it just does not jive with scripture and the logical conclusion of what Jesus did for all of us.
Do you realize Jesus is engraved with those scares we've given him for eternity...We can't even phathom the depth of hurt we must have given him, but because he LOVES us so much to put on MORTAL MAN forever, do ya think he would just give you up.
I'm sorry you believe this lie, and it's a lie that deceives good men and women into believing Christ sacrafice was NOT enough...
It's not about what YOU do, it's about what HE did.
If your interested, I'll show you as many verses as you like, in context, to try to get you to realize there is NO WORK you can do to lose you salvation.
Your emotional argument is not valid. One might as well say: "Scripture says that our Lord gave his life 'as a redemption for all' (1 St. Timothy 2:6) and 'God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish' (St. John 3:16). Do you think he would just give up? Therefore, all men are saved and no one goes to hell." That's just as valid an argument, and gives an equally wrong conclusion. God loves all men, and our Lord sacrificed Himself on the Cross to make salvation available to all. But only to those who "overcometh" will He "give to eat of the tree of life" (Apocalypse of St. John 2:7), as He Himself has solemnly promised in Holy Scripture. These are chosen by him in His own secret counsel, and were predestinated by Him before the foundation of the world. And not all the faithful are within this number, as Scripture testifies.
It is not a matter of our Lord's sacrifice being "not enough." St. Paul is clear: the justice of the law, "Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them. ... He that doth those things, shall live in them" (Gal. 3:10-12), is FULFILLED in "them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh." (Rom. 8:1) How can one get past his absolutely clear words?
There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. (Rom. 8:1-5)
And St. Paul declares: "they who are in the flesh, cannot please God." (Rom. 8:8) If those who mind the things that are of the flesh cannot please God, and if "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die" (Rom. 8:13), then any Christian who does so after being justified does exactly that: he dies in spirit, and falls from grace. So it's not true at all that "there is NO WORK you can do to lose you salvation."
This is where you completely miss the point. We are no longer under the LAW, we are under God's grace. There is NOTHING, no law, no sacrement, no burden we carry any longer. It is Christ which unburnders us from ALL this sin. If you're living your life based on the fact that you better be GOOD enough to get into heaven then you are living a lie. Paul is talking about a relationship with the FATHER. You can not sin and have a GOOD relationship with him. But that does not mean he is no longer your FATHER. Once you become an INHERITED son or daughter, that's it, there is no going back. There is no letting go by God.
You made a choice to accept Christ as Lord and He accepted you and HE does not let go of his promise even if you do!!!!
For all your talk about Scripture, you haven't given a single verse which says that the faithful cannot fall away and be lost.
The problem with quoting scripture always turns into a pissing match which I refuse to partake. What am I going to quote YOU anyways that you don't already know? By me quoting you a certain scripture is that gonna make you see something new? You know what God's word says, I just don't think you're applying it correctly.
For example: John 3:16, you quoted it, and then said: That's just as valid an argument, and gives an equally wrong conclusion.
What's ironinc is YOU use some of the scripture I would have quoted to back my argument, so therefore I don't feel it's neccessary to pitch to someone who knows it already. I might quote here or there just to reiterate my point occasionally.
...then any Christian who does so after being justified does exactly that: he dies in spirit, and falls from grace.
No, he dies in his relationship with God. Christ gave eternal life when you first accept him! You can not lose "eternal" life, or it was never eternal in the first place! Look at John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and he shall go IN and OUT and find pasture.
What do you think IN and OUT means?
Search the logical conclusion of what you're trying to prove. Christ said he promises God will not let anyone snatch you from his or God's hand. You're putting an "UNLESS" in there and adding to scripture. You're living according to the LAW, which we are no longer under.
St. Paul is absolutely clear, and I don't see how you can misread him. You seem to concede that it is possible for one who has been justified to partially fall away if he "lives according to the flesh" (see Rom. 8:13). You meet my statement that such a one "dies in spirit, and falls away from grace" by saying No, he dies in his relationship with God. But how in the world is he on the path to salvation if his relationship to God is dead? St. Paul says "they who are in the flesh, cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8) and we know that pleasing God is a sine qua non of final glorification (see Rom. 2:6-16; also Heb. 11:6). Likewise, the Apostle writes: "you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification." (Rom 8:9-10) Now a clear implication here is that the spirit does not live "because of justification" in those who have not the Spirit of Christ, and are not his. But justification is a necessary precursor of final glorification (see Rom. 8:30).
You don't seem to understand St. John 10:9. The sheep who go out through Christ to pasture are not sinning. There's nothing wrong with doing that, anymore than there's anything wrong with real sheep being let out to pasture.
As I said before, eternal life is "eternal" because it is God's own life: St. Peter says that we become partakers of the divine nature! The adjective "eternal" does not mean that it is impossible for us to lose while in the state of a wayfarer.
Christ said he promises God will not let anyone snatch you from his or God's hand
No, he never said that.
"And they shall never perish:" you may hear the undertone, as if He had said to them, Ye shall perish for ever, because ye are not of my sheep. "No one shall pluck them out of my hand." Give still greater heed to this: "That which my Father gave me is greater than all." What can the wolf do? What can the thief and the robber? They destroy none but those predestined to destruction. But of those sheep of which the apostle says, "The Lord knoweth them that are His;" and "Whom He did foreknow, them He also did predestinate; and whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified;" --there is none of such sheep as these that the wolf seizes, or the thief steals, or the robber slays. He, who knows what He gave for them, is sure of their number. And it is this that He says: "No one shall pluck them out of my hand;" and in reference also to the Father, "That which my Father gave me is greater than all." (St. Augustine, Tractate 48 on the Gospel of St. John, no. 6)
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