Posted on 06/27/2009 8:00:09 PM PDT by jhoge
Ayn Rand was an atheist. According to her one-time associate Barbara Branden, Rand became an atheist at age thirteen. Branden records Rand writing in her diary at that age: "Today I decided to be an atheist." Branden then reports her as later explaining, "I had decided that the concept of God is degrading to men. Since they say that God is perfect, man can never be that perfect, then man is low and imperfect and there is something above him – which is wrong." [Branden, PAR, p. 35.] Branden continues that Rand's "second reason" is that "no proof of the existence of God exists."
Rand therefore proposes two objections to the existence of God. First, belief in God degrades man, by positing something "higher" or more "perfect." Belief in God is anti-man. Second, there is no proof for the existence of God. While Rand would later emphasize the irrationality of belief in God, the impression from her writings is that her principal objection to belief in God was a moral or psychological one. [Ryan, OCR, p. 270.]
(Excerpt) Read more at solohq.org ...
Great post! If you think about it, too, where do we get the idea that the universe has to be 'fair'? If there is no god; man is just more highly evolved and now has the capacity to reason; there is no design or order to the universe anyway, then where did the concept of fairness come from? It implies someone, something keeping score to make sure it all balances out doesn't it?
Rand decided to reject God because she didn't think it was 'fair' that something was above man (at the wise age of 13, yet!). This was and always has been called "pride".
Michael Gove
The Conservative nature is a way of looking at the world, a way of thinking. It does not speak so much to what to think, as HOW to think. One’s Meta-physic is generally a separate issue
Hey parsifal - I luv ya!
Good points (very good ones) but the fact is, there is nothing that keeps an atheist from being conservative or vice versa.
Yes, it is compatible.
And no, I’m not one.
Welcome! This is a great question, I don’t care when you joined.
“Are atheism and conservatism opposed forces?”
No, they are perfect allies. Atheists rely on self above a god. Conservatives rely on self above government control by politicians who think they’re God.
Though I am not an Atheist, I would say that when applying reason strictly to the beliefs of organized religion and to those Conservatism, only the latter remains.
If I may add to your comment. I think Rand was a tremendously underrated philosopher and writer. My biggest gripes with her is that she had some problems with reality.
I also think that sometimes it takes some age and maturity to see the hand of God at work. Trying to prove or disprove god at age 13 or age 25 is sometimes hopeless. But as you age, you often come to see the truth that there are just things that don’t make sense without god being behind them.
Many atheists get caught up in the judeo-christian portrait of god as this being sitting on a throne like an oriental potentate and they know that isn’t how things are. They rebel at god as this concept and are almost driven at times to do everything in their power to destroy this concept.
I think they may be doing God’s work because that is not who he is to me either, or to anyone else. Those who believe often have to experience God personally. The lucky ones can just accept the belief as children and it stays a part of them. The others, like me, have to learn and learn to trust and accept.
parsy, who believes
As one who is wavering at the borders between the Conservative and Libertarian concepts,
In my limited existence, I have found a futility in opposing free will. If God has given us Free Will, then it is no place of mine to take it away. The same Free Will that permits one to submit themselves to God, also necessarily permits turning away from Him. It is the individuals choice to walk with God, or away.
A Libertarian may argue that attempting to legislate behavior, except to prevent injury to others, is a waste of time.
This does not mean that they would encourage destructive behavior, or not attempt, by persuasion, to enlighten their brethren.
It is a matter of viewpoint.
I Love these threads
as the Great Christopher Hitchens has said in many debates with the faithful (among many other very brilliant things) just being an atheist proves very little politically speaking. Much like being someone of “faith”. One can in fact be a Communist, Fascist, Anarchist, Liberal, Conservative what have you. Plenty of “ Liberation Theology “ left wingers down south American way. Plenty of Communist rejected the Judeo-Christian god while worshiping the idol of Stalin and Mao, building nations Where all thanks must be on to them, and all good things flow from them.
He also asks an interesting debate question of his opponents. Regarding a baby born today in Saudi Arabia would you rather he be raised an Atheist or a Wahhabist.
Thx.
parsy.
The two mix nicely. And can be very disarming to people.
| The Bhagavad-Gita. |
| Chapter XII |
|
Beautiful.
parsy, who believes God manifests himself
Yeah, well, to address the question the post-and-scoot OP tendered, no, I don't think that the two are incompatible unless you're special-pleading for a restricted definition of conservatism. For one thing, Rand wasn't a conservative by any rational definition, she was a utopian revolutionary. For another, and it's the point I'm trying to make on the Atlas Shrugged threads, her narrative on the topic conflicts with her philosophy, and she's good at both. Her characters exhibit an undeniable belief in soul, which distinguishes her from nihilist authors for whom nothing is believable except the existential moment. Her philosophy denies God, and yet is based on Aristotle, who came to the conclusion that He must exist else there be no source for the laws of the universe. And if you don't believe in those, try dropping a hammer on yer toe some time and tell me if gravity isn't more than an illusion.
That is, to be extravagant, the teleological argument for the existence of God. It is something the the honest atheist must at least acknowledge as neither proven nor disproven; hence an honest atheist must, under the skin, be an agnostic at heart. And hence redeemable, if I understand this sort of thing correctly at all. My hope of heaven depends on it.
;-)
If by atheism you mean you have no ruler in which to measure right and wrong, then you are not conservative, conservatives have a ruler.
I don’t think there is such a thing as anti-anteism. Since atheism is lack of belief then there cannot be any such thing as anti-nothing.
Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mephisto, Hitler....
yup, pagans the lot of them
Glad to be back. Been on PUF (Project Ultimate Freep) for years now,and I slowly backed out so as to leave no tracks.
I agree. Atheists are often the most moral people I know. The goodness that drives them will provide the basis for their acceptance at some point. As I said before, I think Atheists do a wonderful job for God because they unknowingly support the fact that it is by faith we believe and not by reason and science.
I just try to help them keep a more open mind so when God does touch them, they can accept it. Remember, Paul was not convinced into Christianity, he was knocked on his butt.
parsy, who is glad to be back
Here’s hoping you flop over on the conservative side. Libertarianism is an attractive concept, but it is not reality based. You are a human being and a part of human society and our country does not exist so that you can just pile up money, or action figures, any more than your life exists for that reason.
You are not an island and libertarianism tends to isolate you IMHO from human interactions. It is not necessary to become a member of a herd to be a conservative, and you still have rights, and you can still pursue happiness, you are’nt just constantly having to sit around and figure how much you are being screwed by your fellow human beings.
parsy, who rolls in the mud sometimes
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