Posted on 06/12/2023 10:20:58 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Ahead of the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting in New Orleans this week, Saddleback Church founder Rick Warren stressed that he agrees with all of the denomination’s beliefs — except for its stance on women pastors.
“The SBC Constitution was changed in 2015 after 170yrs of Baptist cooperation. Now churches must be ‘CLOSELY’ identified with our confession. NOT ‘completely’ Our BF&M2000 is 4,032 words. We disagree with only 1 word: men. We're 99.9999999999% in agreement! Is that CLOSE ENOUGH?” Warren tweeted on Sunday.
"I'm not making this stuff up," he added on Monday. "This is the history of the SBC: After growing for 80 YEARS without any Confession of faith, Southern Baptists grew for another 90 years with a 'Consensus of Opinion' Confession which was never used to exclude churches. It was a 'Guide for Interpretation' ... the Founders never intended for our Convention to be defined or unified by a man-made compilation of doctrinal statements. The Bible itself was enough."
Warren’s tweet came just before he is scheduled to appear before thousands of Southern Baptists at their Annual Meeting held in New Orleans, Louisiana, this week and appeal the SBC’s decision to cut ties with Saddleback Church due to “the church continuing to have a female teaching pastor functioning in the office of a pastor.”
The move came after Pastor Andy Wood, who succeeded retiring Warren at Saddleback, listed his wife, Stacie, as a "pastor" in his biography on the prominent California megachurch's website in October 2022. And on May 7, Katie Edwards, one of the three women ordained at Saddleback in 2021, was announced as the Lake Forest campus pastor.
Launched in 1980 by Warren, Saddleback Church had grown to become the second-largest Southern Baptist church in the U.S. with 57,000 members, planting numerous churches in the U.S. and four campuses overseas.
Since retiring as Saddleback’s leader a year ago, Warren has openly discussed how his views on the role of women in the Church have changed over the years, often drawing criticism from more conservative leaders within the SBC.
The denomination holds to the belief that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture, as outlined in its Faith and Message Statement.
Earlier this month, Warren launched a website in which he addresses what he sees as challenges within the SBC and makes arguments for women pastors.
In his first video, Warren said he changed his views after three years of scriptural study and now believes women can serve in any role in the church, including as pastors.
He weighed in on complementarianism, the theological framework that says women have distinct roles in the family and church and are forbidden from holding certain offices in the church, and egalitarianism, which contends that Scripture does not warrant such restrictions.
“There are biblical alternatives to both complementarianism and egalitarianism,” he said. “And while both of those positions have strengths, they both, in my opinion, have unbiblical weaknesses, and they ignore important Bible verses. So actually, I'm neither. I'm neither one of them, I reject them both. Now, if you're honest, you'll have to admit that Paul often says things about women in Scripture that appeared to contradict each other. So tell me what you want to believe … and I'll show you the verses you have to ignore or rationalize away.”
In an earlier tweet on Sunday, Warren published an open letter to Christian women apologizing for holding them back “from using the spiritual gifts and leadership skills that the Holy Spirit had sovereignly placed in them.” He said his “biggest regret” in 53 years of ministry is that he “didn’t do my own personal exegesis sooner on the four passages used to restrict women.”
“Shame on me,” he wrote, adding that he felt compelled to “repent” for his earlier teaching regarding the role of women in the church after “reading over 100 books on the early church and the history of the Great Commission.”
Warren said he doesn’t “expect to win” the appeal in New Orleans, nor does he expect to “change the mind of any angry fundamentalist.”
“They are responsible to God, not to me. I’m doing this as an act of obedience to the Holy Spirit,” he wrote.
“Regardless of attacks and the vote result, I want a clear conscience before my Master ... that I repented, and that this sinner did what he asked me to do. With that, I am completely content to let Him be the judge and evaluator of my life and ministry. We must live for an Audience of One.”
In addition to Saddleback, the SBC cut ties with four other churches due to their stance on women in church leadership: Calvary Baptist Church in Jackson, Mississippi; Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky; New Faith Mission Ministry in Griffin, Georgia; and St. Timothy's Christian Baptist Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
Fern Creek Baptist Church, which has been led by the Rev. Linda Barnes Popham since 1993, also plans to appeal the decision at this week’s meeting.
Interesting issue. I am not a theologian and can’t comment on what Scripture or the theology of any denomination says about women clergy.
Go start your own new cult Rick Warren. I am a woman and would never be a part of a church with a woman Pastor.
Better for the church to be in 100% agreement with God.
The Bible is not subject to ‘modern’ interpretation. Paul was quite clear about women pastors. If you want to throw this out, then everything is on the table, rendering the Bible illegitimate. Not the word of God, but a malleable script to be revised based on the current culture.
We disagree with only 1 word: men. We’re 99.9999999999% in agreement! Is that CLOSE ENOUGH?”
..........................................
No. That’s a 0.0000000001% foothold for Satan.
It all comes down to 1 Timothy 2:12:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man”
If you accept this verse, women cannot be pastors. But they can also not be judges, professors, or politicians.
My own interpretation is that this verse is not a proscription. Paul does not they “thou shalt not” he says “I do not.” This is how Paul runs his church, and it is an acceptable model, but he is not saying all churches must be run this way.
He’s only good at getting Dems elected. And after his endorsement of Obama in 2008....the book of his that was given to me went in the landfill.
“Paul was quite clear about women pastors.”
-———Very clear-————
This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and daughters will prophesy. (Acts 2:16-17)
Paul was quite clear about women pastors.
-———————Paul-———————
Now to each one (male and female) the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good… Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy… (1 Corinthians 12:7, 14:39, NIV)
Slippery slope.
Paul's letters to Timothy were about organizing and running the church. It is in that context that we should read his comments. In addition to the places that forbid women from being ministers, Paul's description of church overseers and deacon requirements describe only men. Women, as all Christians, have their places in ministry, but not as pastors. Our pastor said we will be members of a conservative, bible-based SBC, or we will not be associated with it.
It pretty much comes down to:
1st Timothy 2:11-12 says (NIV) -- " woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet." Note that "woman" in the Greek is goo-nay', which could be either woman or wife.
Romans 16:1 says (AMP) -- "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[a][b] of the church in Cenchreae." "Deacon" in the Greek is dee-ak'-on-os, which means both leadership and servitude. However, as leader it means not the highest leader (because the servant part of the definition is always at play, even if he's servant to a high leader and, thus, has authority over others).
I used to hear 1st Corinthians 14:34-35 as an argument against women teaching or leading in the church. But I think now it's generally understood from the context that that's more about an analogy against speaking-in-tongues interrupting church a lot. Basically, it's hard to imagine the Apostle Paul spending all of 1st Corinthians 14 being about tongues and prophecy (and how they edify individuals or the church), then in verses 34-35 say, "Time out. I'm changing topic for 2 verses to tell you women can't speak up in church. Time end, let's resume talking about tongues and prophecy." So instead of those 2 verses being a teaching to no let women speak up in church, it's probably an analogy ("hey, ya'll don't even let your women speak up and interrupt church but ya lettin the tongues gift interrupt ya a lot?"). Whether or not the Corinthian church was right in not letting their women speak up isn't stated in the Bible text.
Romans 16:3 says (AMP) -- "Greet Priscilla[c] and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." "Co-worker" in the Greek is soon-er-gos', which means just like it says (no connotation for being beneath Paul, but doesn't rule it out either).
It’s not confusing at all that the acronym SBC applies to both!
Having said that, yes to God’s word, no to almost anything Rick Warren.
“The Bible is not subject to ‘modern’ interpretation.”
Like King James kept his heavy hand away from the translators.
Note that the male gender is used, as well as the term husband of one wife. Therefore, a pastor or a member of the elder board or session of a church must be a man. To do otherwise is to go on the slippery slope towards liberalism, which has destroyed the mainline denominations and will destroy the evangelical church. What we are seeing in the evangelical church, with people like Andy Stanley and Rick Warren and movements like the New Perspective on Paul, is this century's version of the heresies of Bromley Oxnam and Harry Emerson Fosdick in the last century.
Scripture says that women should not be in a position of authority over men.
The qualifications Paul lists for deacon or elder (which a pastor is) is for men. Not women.
Every church I’ve been to that has a woman pastor is a mess. And it’s only been by accident, really. We avoid churches where we know the pastor is a woman.
I was raised in a legalistic cult group which had lots of women “workers”(Pastors) A GRACE believer got me out of it as a adult.
Since then I have seen lots of women pastors in modern churches. They all seem to be lead more by emotion than sound scripture and doctrine. To cover their ignorance they have no printed literature at all, and it is forbidden to listed to other church preachers. No TV, movies, radios, record players. If it is fun the word is NO!
I went back after years of being out and educated in the Bible just to listen to them preach. I found the women preachers were extremely ignorant of what the Bible really taught. I never saw happy people in that church till the service was over.
For the last 49 years I enjoy going to a small local Baptist Church. Yes, I enjoy going to church!
If anyone believes they would remain only .00000001% in disagreement, you are severely kidding yourself.
The world 🌎🌍 is being prepared for the debut of Satan’s anti-messiah the Antichrist.
With him comes the False Prophet, 7 years of Tribulation presented as ‘Peace and Security’ and in the middle of that 3-1/2 years of the Mark of the Beast.
The world 🌎🌍 laughs, scoffs and mocks.
As in the Days of Noah.
That is correct.
Too many people conflate any ministry with women not being pastors. Pastor is the only ministry forbidden for a woman to hold.
I've seen people use the argument that women can prophesy as meaning they can be pastors, but they are two distinct gifts. Conflating them as an excuse to support women pastors is disingenuous.
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