Questions for Dispensationalists, Part 1 of 4

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 21, 2024 | Charles Meek

[grumpa]

A. Haven’t dispensationalists been consistently wrong about prophecy? — All of these men and many more have made false prophecies: Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Chuck Smith, Pat Robertson, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Harold Camping, etc. etc. 1948 and False Prophecies

B. Questions about the church ―

1. Do you believe that Israel and the church are different bodies, even though the Bible teaches that they are the same body (Ephesians 2:15; 3:6)―and that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek? (Acts 15:9; Romans 2:28-29; 10:12; Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11)

2. If the church age is only a parenthesis, why do so many passages teach that Jesus reigns from heaven as King of Kings now (Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 28:18; John 5:22; Ephesians 1:20-22; 1 Timothy 6:15-16; Hebrews 1:1-12; 7:25; 8:1-4; Revelation 1:6) and forever? (2 Samuel 7:13; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:44; 4:3, 34; 7:14, 18, 27; Luke 1:33; John 5:22; Acts 7:48-50; 10:36; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 3:21; Hebrews 1:12; 5:6; 6:20; 7:24; 8:1-4; 2 Peter 1:11; Revelation 1:5; 3:21; 5:13; 11:15) Further, the New Covenant is forever (Ezekiel 37:26; Hebrews 13:20) and the gospel is eternal (Revelation 14:6). Age without end, Amen (Ephesians 3:21).

C. Questions about the temple ―

1. Doesn’t the New Testament explain that while the physical temple was about to be destroyed (Matthew 24:2; 34), Christ became the spiritual temple and cornerstone, while Christians are the living stones built on the foundation of the apostles? (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-8; Revelation 21:14, 22)

2. If there is to be a re-built temple with animal sacrifices and rituals, wouldn’t that be denigrating to Christ’s ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice? (Hebrews 10:10)

3. Dispensationalists think that Ezekiel’s temple (Ezekiel 44-48) is literal, but also say that bloody sacrifices in the rebuilt temple will be only a memorial. However, Ezekiel’s vision refers to these sacrifices as literally making atonement (Ezekiel 45:15, 17, 20). How is it that the dispensational position is not Contradictory?

4. Can you find a single verse in the New Testament that says anything about the need for a re-built temple?

5. Why does Scripture say God does not dwell in temples made by hands anymore? (Acts 7:48; 17:24)

6. If we are in the New Covenant era, which Scripture says is FOREVER (Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 14:6), why would God go back to a temple system of the Old Covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)?

[grumpa]

Thanks for the comment. Appreciated.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> aMPU - you haven’t answered this

OK. The answer is no.

[Cronos]

That’s a point of dispute - Jesus said and the Apostles echoed that with His sacrifice, there was no need for any more animal sacrifices.

Why do you think it is not negating His sacrifice?

[ealgeone]

Let grumpa spin his on answer. In either case the rapture is not the Second Coming.

Do you believe the Second Coming has already happened??

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> what you asked

In Exodus 12, God proclaims the Passover will be celebrated in perpetuity.

14 ‘This day will become[al] a memorial[am] for you, and you will celebrate it as a festival[an] to the Lord—you will celebrate it perpetually as a lasting ordinance.[ao] 15 For seven days[ap] you must eat[aq] bread made without yeast.[ar] Surely[as] on the first day you must put away yeast from your houses because anyone who eats bread made with yeast[at] from the first day to the seventh day will be cut off[au] from Israel.

Never again would He pass over Israel, but the celebration would be forever celebrated and served two purposes:

1. To never forget their miraculous deliverance from slavery, in fulfillment of His promises
2. To foretell their ultimate deliverance by Messiah. As such, the Passover is rich in symbolism of Him. It looks forward to The Lamb of God.

For these same reasons, Israel will resume Temple sacrifices in the future, but the they will not forgive sin, but continue to memorialize the sacrifice of Him and the deliverance of the sin of Israel.

[Cronos]

The pre trib rapture philosophy holds to the second coming in 2 parts, so two second comings, which is nonsensical (as is most of dispensationalism)

[Cronos]

As to your second question, no, to me the second coming has not already happened, however we must note that the Olivet discourse in Matthew merges both the events of 70 AD and the end times actions. Luke separates the two

What Christians have believed is

ONE - that Daniel's visions were pointing to Jesus' FIRST coming - and was fulfilled in 70 AD

The Church, the community of Christ followers has always believed that Daniel was connected to the first advent

Jesus judged Jerusalem with the Roman army in 70 AD. He predicted this very event in Luke 19:42-44 For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you adn surround you... and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation"

Within the generation of those listening in 30 AD, the temple was destroyed and animal sacrifices ended once and for all

TWO The second advent of Christ at the final eschaton must not be confused with the destruction of Jerusalem as in the Olivet discourse. That, the second advent is when He comes to judge His kingdom - the Church. The second coming is from 24:50 to Mat 25:36

Christ's second coming will be sudden public and unmistakable. NOt a rapture, not a silent taken-away. history itself will end.

==================

Teh coming of the Son of man in judgement was seen by the Church as fulfilled in 70 AD, but not the second (final) coming

Ours is not the generation of the fig tree. That generation is long dead.

[Cronos]

Thank you for your response.

[wita]

absolutely, but I have work responsibilities in about forty five minutes so I’ll have to answer later. Same with the follow on post.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Thanks for a solid question.

[thepoodlebites]

Josephus claimed that the Judeans destroyed themselves through the abominations they performed.
—
Josephus was wrong about the death of Herod (4 b.c). The accurate date is January 10, 1 b.c., after a more notable lunar eclipse. Why should I believe Josephus?
I would rather review the scriptures and astronomical events. An argument from authority is weak, unless it is from the Word of God.

[dartuser]

Personally, Meek has done a great service ... In these questions, he has illustrated how Preterists twist the Bible to their view. All of these 'questions' are easily answerable ... and I have personally used them (grumpa has posted these many times) to structure an adult Sunday School class highlighting the errors of Preterism.

We could easily come up with a set of questions that Preterists cannot answer cogently. But it would be a waste of time ... they do not interpret the prophetic portions of the Bible correctly.

[vespa300]

Yeah, antichrist is a secular power. That would fool a lot of people wouldn’t it? Nothing you wrote makes any sense. And Michael means one who is like God and ONLY Jesus is like God because he is God. I’m sorry you haven’t a deeper study on who Michael was.(Jesus incarnate in the OT). He was not created..he is the eternal son of God who sometimes appeared incarnate in the OT.

Your theology is so superficial........you don’t even know a day IN PROPHECY is a year....time, times, and half a time is 3.5 years and that’s 1260 days or 1260 years and the Papacy, the little horn ruled for? ........1260.....538 (pagan Rome becomes Papal Rome) to 1798 when the Pope was finally taken captive.

Even Protestants knew who the great apostate is. Keep looking at Israel though. Maybe someday you’ll read where Jesus said the kingdom is taken from them and given to a new nation.

In the meantime, Rome’s wound has healed and she’s got world power and influence again and you will come crying back to her too....and her day of the Sun.......fool.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I agree. It is extraordinary to watch those with no theological or biblical training try to manipulate the Scriptures to support their pre-decided view. Some of it is simply funny.

[21twelve]

Our pastor had a sermon where he talked about the abomination happening back in Jesus’s time. And the “not one stone left standing”? He said after the temple burned, people took apart all of the stones to get to the gold that had melted and run down the joints.

I have never heard of the civil war! Very interesting. Reminds me of what is going on in America at the moment.

no other “age ever did breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was... They overthrew the city themselves.

[Philsworld]

I’ve shown Cronos the SDA position on Michael at least 50 times over the years (probably more). He still says SDA’s believe Christ is a created being.

I gave him multiple SDA sources, including this link https://www.biblelightinfo.com/michael.htm

I gave him the article summary: As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.

I then showed him what church fathers and Catholic sources have said (2nd half of the linked article). Even his own Saint Melito (formerly Bishop Melito of Sardis) agrees with the SDA position:

Bishop Melito of Sardis:
The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, Archangel among the angels;

The SDA position on Michael the Archangel is very clear. Some continue to falsely claim that the SDA position is the exact opposite. Is it even possible that a person could, by mistake, misinterpret the SDA position? Nope, no mistake.

Can the statement “BUT HE (Christ) IS NOT A CREATED BEING” mean anything other than that Christ is not a created being? Nope.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

This is what I think as to why some Catholics keep falsely misstating the SDA position on Michael: The bible CLEARLY identifies their church, the Papacy, as the Antichrist power. The Reformers and SDA’s have pounded that in for years. Catholics will say anything to distance themselves from that fact, and will attack anyone who claims it, such as EGW, SDA’s, all Reformers, etc... They do it all the time. Unfortunately for them, they can’t get away from the fact that the Papacy is the Antichrist power, Little Horn, Man of sin, and Son of Perdition. Same for Evangelicals, they being the Harlot daughters that they are.

[Philsworld]

a day IN PROPHECY is a year....time, times, and half a time is 3.5 years and that’s 1260 days or 1260 years and the Papacy, the little horn ruled for? ........1260.....538 (pagan Rome becomes Papal Rome) to 1798 when the Pope was finally taken captive.

---

They will never admit that. (Neither will Evangelicals) The day/year principle was specifically denied by Jesuits Francisco Ribera and Cardinal Robert Bellarmine. They were part of the Counter Reformation doctrine of Futurism, which all followers of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe in. The HISTORICIST model shows the Papacy ruling exactly 1260 years, down to the month. Protestant Reformers all believed in the day/year principle of Prophecy. They also all believed that the Papacy was the Antichrist power.

The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/1260years.htm

[Philsworld]

——>Even Protestants knew who the great apostate is. Keep looking at Israel though. Maybe someday you’ll read where Jesus said the kingdom is taken from them and given to a new nation.

They look at Israel because Satan has blinded them to the truth. They have been deceived.

[Cronos]

Nearly all historians agree with the 4 BC date. Only W.E. Filmer argued for 1 BC.

And Timothy D Barnes refuted Filmer.

[Cronos]

Furthermore, Josewhen writing about the destruction of Jerusalem, was writing about what happened in his own lifetime