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To: thepoodlebites

Gaius Caesar, Augustus’ adopted son and heir was present in Rome and participated as a member of his father’s consilium at the time when, following the death of Herod, Archelaus and Atnipas travelled to Rome to appeal their rival claims to the throne of Judea (refer to Anthologies xvii 9.5)

Gaius departed Rome in 2 BC and spent the next several years travelling in the east. therefore, Herod could not have died in 1 BC.

Regarding your point about the lunar eclipse - it would make sense to look at the evidence provided by the Megillot Ta’anit, a Jewish list of days on which, by reason of notable events associated with them, the Jews were not allowed to fast. The list was complied shortly before the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, and the reason for the holiday is given in every case but two. S. Zeitlin explains that “undoubtedly the chronicler’s silence in these instances is due to their being recently instituted holidays pro tempore. The incidents being well know to all, it was not necessary to add any explanations.”

ccording to Jewish tradition these holidays, which fell on 7 Kislev and 2 Shebat, commemorated the death of Herod and the death of Jannai, both kings who had died within recent memory and whom the Jews hated.

Now 7 Kislev, which the Jewish commentator actually preferred to associate with Herod, fell earlier in the year than any of the above three lunar eclipses, and for this reason it must be ruled out. But 2 Shebat, although it fell before the eclipse in 4 B.C., occurred fifteen days after eclipse in 1 B.C. In view of the serious deterioration of Herod’s health which Josephus says set in immediately after the eclipse, it does not seem likely that he could have lived much longer than the fortnight that this allows.


92 posted on 04/25/2024 12:40:25 AM PDT by Cronos (I identify as an ambulance, my pronounces are wee/woo)
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To: Cronos

Your knowledge of your documented histories, recorded by human hands that are flawed, seem to be used more to distract than to persuade. I would like to follow your argument but it is difficult when you do not provide the relevant reference, Anthologies xvii 9.5?, for example. Or you try to intimidate me by asking, have I read this or that? Next, will you be asking me for my credentials?
I perceive that you are engaging in circular reasoning, assuming that Josephus was entirely accurate in his assessments and then introducing Anthologies, assuming that these writings represent the truth, told by the conquerors, their associates or captives?
My argument is based on an understanding of the Bible and astronomy, and an intermediate understanding of history. You have a thorough understanding of your histories but I should not have to read two or three historical books to follow what you are trying to say. I’m not requiring you to read a book on celestial mechanics or a history of ancient astronomical observations and their interpretations. Wasn’t Cronus the god of time? Or was it Cronos or maybe Kronos? Wasn’t Chaos the first god? Or was it Apophis? Or was that an asteroid? Hmm.


94 posted on 04/25/2024 7:42:30 PM PDT by thepoodlebites (and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.)
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To: Cronos

Gaius Caesar, Augustus’ adopted son and heir was present in Rome and participated as a member of his father’s consilium at the time when, following the death of Herod, Archelaus and Atnipas travelled to Rome to appeal their rival claims to the throne of Judea (refer to Anthologies xvii 9.5)

Gaius departed Rome in 2 BC and spent the next several years travelling in the east. therefore, Herod could not have died in 1 BC.

I normally don’t use Wikipedia as a reference but in this case I will make an exception. “Following the death of King Herod of Judaea in 4 BC,[25] his sons Antipas and Archelaus both came to Rome with their own copy of Herod’s will to plead their case as to why they each deserved to inherit their father’s kingdom.” [1] But reference 25 clearly indicates that the year of Herod’s death (4 BC) is in dispute from other scholars.

25. The death of Herod was on 1 January BC according to some scholars. See Andrew Steinmann, From Abraham to Paul: A Biblical Chronology. (St. Louis, MO: Concordia Pub. House, 2011), Print. pp. 219-256. W.E. Filmer, “The Chronology of the Reign of Herod the Great”. The Journal of Theological Studies, 1966. 17(2): p. 283-298. Finegan, Jack. Handbook of Biblical Chronology: Principles of Time Reckoning in the Ancient World and Problems of Chronology in the Bible. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1998, 2015. pp. 238-279.

Poor Gaius and his brother Lucius were doomed from the moment Augustus adopted them into the family. It seems that Livia was intent on murdering the entire family to ensure that her son Tiberius would ascend to the throne. Rumors abounded that Livia was an expert at administering poison, even poisoning her teacher with mushrooms?! Augustus was careful to pick figs from a tree but Livia outsmarted him by poisoning the figs while they were still attached. But Wikipedia gives her a pass in this, er, introductory guide to history, still an interesting read. [2]

“Let all the poison that lurks in the mud, hatch out.” Robert Graves, I Claudius

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Caesar
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livia


100 posted on 04/26/2024 3:20:06 PM PDT by thepoodlebites (and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.)
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