U.S. NOW HAS CHANCE TO BAN ITS DARKEST EVIL AND AVOID ASPECTS OF A PURIFICATION

Spirit Daily ^ | Nov 9, 2002 | Michael Brown

[Irisshlass]

The U.S. must quickly seize the opportunity to eliminate partial-birth abortion. This is the single worst sin in American history. To destroy a child is bad enough, but to do it when the baby is fully viable -- and cognizant -- is beyond terrorism. We worry about spanking a toddler at the same time it's okay to crush the skull of an infant?

After a ban on partial-birth abortion, Republicans and Conservatives, granted a golden opportunity by last Tuesday's election, must move boldly to ban all abortion. Since Roe versus Wade, 43 million American children have been killed, comparable to the Communist atrocities in China and Russia and vastly more than the 405,000 Americans lost in World War II. When we say "beyond terrorism," we mean it. Lost in all the uproar over September 11 was the fact that bad as the attack was, it cost no more human lives that day -- that very September 11 -- than did abortion.

We hear so much about Iraq, which certainly needs to be addressed. But what about infanticide? Why is there not the same level of rhetoric? Why is there not the same outrage? Abortion will cause 1.3 million casualties during the next 12 months; can we say the same for Iraq? Or for Al Qaeda? Or for any current adversary?

Nothing is more urgent. Nothing calls out more for divine rectification. We have to be tough here. We have to tell the ugly truth. And that truth is that abortion has a demonic origin. In fact, one could argue that society is unknowingly participating in a huge ritual: the sacrifice of innocents, a blood sacrifice hearkening to Molech (see Leviticus, chapter 18-20).

"Abortion on demand is the demonic Baal worship of modern times," noted one writer. "King Ahab and Queen Jezebel led the Israelites in Baal worship and the sacrifice of children in the Old Testament. Ahaz went so far as to burn 'his son as an offering' to Baal/Molech, as did Manasseh (see 2 Kings 16:3; 21:6). Why would people make such terrible decisions? It was believed that human sacrifice to Baal held the key to prosperity. Therefore, selfish people desiring to live in prosperity and ease brought their firstborn child to the high priest, where scholars say the child would be offered as a burnt offering to the deity."

There are also roots in actual witchcraft. Witches have often promoted abortion. Some consider it a "sacrament." Do we really want to be part of something so dark? Is it hysterical to want to rid this nation of such an evil? While there were times they allowed infanticide during the Roman Empire, even Nero exiled women who had an abortion, and today, even Jane Roe has turned against abortion as evil!

In His mercy, God waits for us to make this huge decision. He will embrace the repentant woman. He will even forgive an abortionist. Did He not anoint even a murderer like Saul? Oh, the love He has for us -- the understanding that we struggle here with spiritual blinders. Oh, what love He has for those who have had abortions. "Yes, the Bible reveals God's great love for children," said the same writer previously quoted. "It also reveals how much He loves those deceived by the abortion propaganda machine. He loves them so much that He gave His only begotten Son to offer complete healing and restoration from the trauma of abortion through the healing power and blood of Jesus Christ."

The same can be said of the politicians who have stood idly by -- or have even promoted the "pro-choice" position. God will forgive them too; He awaits their return; but as the number of aborted continues to increase, there is only so long He can watch without taking action. If we move now -- forcefully, radically, without compromise -- aspects of God's purification, so overdue, will be avoided. If not, don't pay attention to the political scene, no matter how victorious it seems at the moment; if we don't get rid of abortion, only disaster looms on the horizon.

[Irisshlass]

The way I took it from his posts...was reading scripture to gain himself power...we have no power...

[Irisshlass]

<>According to the word of God they have no authority..none at all. God does not hear any of their prayers..tough but true.

Lots of folks THINK they have gone to communion, been baptised or had prayers said for their dead relatives..and God heard not one word..that is just one reason they need to act beside the obvious <>

Prove in scripture the church is not the Body of Christ, the Church has no authority, God does not answer my prayers or any Catholic, Holy Communion is not the The Body and Blood of Christ, Christ said not to be baptised, and there is no purgatory...

[RnMomof7]

God would have to HEAR the prayer of consecration right?

Prov 15:8
8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. (KJV)

Proverbs 28:9
                     He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination

Jeremiah 7:16
                      Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither                       make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jeremiah 11:14
                      Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will                       not hear [them] in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Lamentations 3:8
                      Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

Lamentations 3:44
                      Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that [our] prayer should not pass through.

                  Psa 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:

Mic 3:4  
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Jhn 9:31 
  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

(Psalm 66:18
If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Proverbs 28:9;
"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.

ISAIAH 59:2-
"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, that He will not hear

Jer 14:12
When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

    1Pe 3:12  
For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

[RnMomof7]

How many families in your parish? My husbands has 3000 families

I live in a Catholic city..90% or so RC ..three kids are a BIG RC family here..

Are there exceptions sure..But then my Baptist son has four , my unchurched daughter is expecting her fourth..

If you expect any reader of this thread to believe that Catholic familes are as large now as they were just a generation ago forget it

In our two block area the average number of kids was 5 but our family had 7 and the ones behind us 12 and the ones across the street 9 ...we had 50 kids in two blocks ...the same area today has about 15 ......

Just tonight my husband mentioned that his best friends daughter is pregnant with #3, and she informed her family she was having her tubes tied..she is done with three (this is a VERY active RC family)

So try as you might my friend the majority of the RCs today control the size of their families with birth control, sterilization and yes abortion...

[Irisshlass]

This does not address what I asked you to prove in scripture...

[RnMomof7]

My reply was to a poster regarding the perverts having authority..and it stands Irish those priests have no spiritual authority..God does not hear them

[Irisshlass]

Christ will be their judge..

[RnMomof7]

He has judged them GUILTY ..and he does not hear their prayer..including the prayers of consecration

[Aristophanes]

Our parish has about a hundred families -- this is Oklahoma, after all, where RC's are only 3% of the population. And it's a traditional Latin Mass parish - a whole 'nother breed of cat, as they say down here. There are Latin Mass parishes sprinkled throughout the country now, and where you find the old Mass, you'll also find Catholics who are serious about their faith (which includes following its teachings on marriage, contraception, etc.)

But you're right about this being unfortunately atypical these days - contrary to the teaching of the Church, most RC's contracept. I'm not suggesting they don't. Since Vatican II, most regular Catholic parishes don't teach the Faith, and ignore issues like contraception and other mortal sins.

I was recently at a First Reconciliation preparation meeting at my oldest son's parochial school parish (not the parish we attend Mass at). At one point the pastor sheepishly admitted to the assembled parents that the Church still required confession at least once per year. This caused an uproar - more than one parent openly doubted that such a thing could be true, after all, no priest had ever bothered to mention this to them. More than one or two stated that they'd never been to Confession after the initial time prior to being received into the Church.

Sad, but true.

[computerjunkie]

Your #49: "...its not your power..."

You're absolutely right and I didn't mean for it to appear as if that's what I was saying. How about, "God's power is manifested when I quote scripture."

[Polycarp]

There is nothing in there that states that abortion is a "sacrament" to Wiccans....Stick to the truth, and your opinion will be respected by those with whom you disagree.

Thank you for your comments. Just a side note, I did not imply in my post the contrary to your point, I simply posted an article that declares the pro-abortion position of a wiccan. It uses religious terminolgy (that does stop short of sacramental terminology) to describe the "right" to abortion, and I desired to share it with my ping list:

The woman must judge what is best for herself at that point in time, but when a good innerplane communication is reached it is a strong support. Also, divination is in order. If the woman is working with a coven they should assist her with this. Astrological interpretations, dreams, tarot, I Ching, pendulums, hypnosis, runes, there are many bridges between here and the spirit world that are our heritage as Witches,

In following the Wiccan rede, we identify the many possibilities life holds out for us and we consistently work to chose the path of the least universal harm. As we are the center of our own universe, we find that path through identifying our True Will. It is not enough to have the power to abort, we must be prepared to exercise that power ethically. In making such a critical decision as whether to bring forth life, it is imperative that we use all means at our disposal for counseling. However, once a Priestess has chosen an abortion as the path of her True Will, then the Craft community should extend its support to our sister in need.

So I think you read more into my few words than I put there.

Mischaracterizing your opponents does not strengthen your argument.

Indeed.

[ltlflwr]

There is nothing in there that states that abortion is a "sacrament" to Wiccans.

Hello kiltmaker,

Doing a quick search on “abortion” and “sacrament” led me to some excerpts from The Sacrament of Abortion by Ginette Paris:

"Artemis had a reputation for liking bloody sacrifices, including human ones ... a practice that has given paganism such a bad name.... The story of Artemis claiming Iphigena as a sacrifice can be told and understood in more than one way ... in one, Iphigenia is a victim, offered in sacrifice on the altar of Artemis; in the other Iphigenia becomes a heroine, and sacrifice takes on a different meaning. Since abortion is a kind of sacrifice, I believe an exploration of this myth may open up fresh avenues of thought." (p. 34)

"Our culture needs new rituals as well as laws to restore abortion to its sacred dimension, which is both terrible and necessary." (p. 92)

"Abortion is a sacrifice to Artemis. Abortion as a sacrament for the gift of life to remain pure." (p. 107)

Source: http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0004_Paris_Sacrament.html

It’s a mistake to make general statements about anyone’s beliefs so, would it be fairer to state that some, if not most Wiccans believe that abortion is a sacrament – you are, as a pro-life pagan, obviously an exception to this statement.

[Joshua]

"According to the word of God they have no authority..none at all. God does not hear any of their prayers..tough but true."

They don't bother God with their prayers. They meditate on Him while they pray to Mary.

I'm still trying to find out how Mary hears all these prayers at one time in all the different languages.

I've been told that she is not, omnipotent,omnipresent, or omiscient, yet she is able to hear all the prayers of the world offered up to her at once. She must be great at multi tasking.

Maybe there is something in heaven like we have on our phones, Prayer ID with Prayer Waiting. That way she can sort out the unrepetant that are trying to sneak in a good word.

I know you can't answer this because you are part of the ignorant Sola Scriptura crowd as I am. Maybe Pollycarp can point us to some special power bestowed on her in sacred tradition?

[Joshua]

"Prove in scripture the church is not the Body of Christ, the Church has no authority, God does not answer my prayers or any Catholic, Holy Communion is not the The Body and Blood of Christ, Christ said not to be baptised, and there is no purgatory... "

Prove in Scripture that the church is anything but those who believe, worship and give their life to Jesus.

Prove with scripture the statement that "There is no salvation outside the catholic church"

[RnMomof7]

Something serious has happened to the traditional Catholic..Heck to the maInline Protestants too....God is all about me being happy now..

What I am curious about (perhaps you could ask some of the RC's in your area ,around here most everyone knows that church rule)..Do they not go to confession because they hold a more reformation position and seek God;s forgivness themselves ? Or is is as I suspect..the idea of being sinful and in need of repentance is not "necessary" or thought about

[Aristophanes]

I had a mini-debate with one of our assistant pastors recently about a similar point, i.e. I proposed that most Catholics today are so poorly catechised that they honestly don't know that contraception is wrong. This is due, so I believe, to the utter lack of teaching from the Novus Ordo (post-Vatican II) Church.

The pastor didn't buy it; he was from South Boston and was a lifelong Catholic who had come back to the Church and been through the FSSP seminary in later life. He couldn't conceive of the idea that there were actual Catholics out there who didn't know such a basic teaching of the Church.

For my part though, I pointed to the very common occurrence of having Catholics quite openly admit that they used contraception or had their tubes tied, etc., etc. They do this because they haven't a clue that this is wrong. They haven't a clue that this is wrong, because the post-Vatican II Church refuses to do its duty.

Same goes for the rest of Catholic teaching these days. Other than preaching against the ultimate unforgivable sin*, they don't teach at all.

You're not the first to notice that something serious has happened to the Church; Pope Paul VI noticed this too as early as the 1970's when he commented that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church.

(* Judgmentalism, of course.)

[Polycarp]

(YOPIOS for pagans, if you will.)

You read more than you post, I presume? ;-)

You have not shown that it is dogmatic to Wicca.

That would be hard to prove, I admit. It would be hard to find a definitive "Catechism of Wicca" as it is a bit amorphous as a group, right?

For the true majority of Wiccans, abortion may be considered a right, but not a "rite". See the difference?

Certainly, and I cede your point.

I never intended to prove that it is sacramental for Wiccans. But it is indeed the position of the vast majority of pagan religions that abortion is indeed a "right" if not a "rite." That was my sole contention.

Thank you for a patient charitable discussion.

[ltlflwr]

I appreciate your response, kiltmaker. Learn something new every day, right?