Free Republic

“It has beens adulterating our hamburger meat for many years.”

Part of the reason I am thank full that I have been raising our own food for the last several years...in fact I can here some of the future food now...the chicken incubators are “chirping” pretty good right now.

“As it was in the beginning, so it will be again - home churches”

I believe this is part of the reason that home churches have been growing lately...along with home school.

Of the 3030 deaths per year (3000 from influenza) the other 30 from all the rest, I was not able to find current numbers for those that were vaccinated versus not vaccinated. If I would try to quote numbers I remember seeing over a decade ago I would most likely mess up some of the numbers so I will not attempt it. But the bigger point is we are talking about 30 deaths a year (not counting influenza)...not something that should be causing “panic” in the doctor's waiting room that we might catch something that should have been vaccinated for. I did notice something while on the CDC site...they listed the different vaccines and there effectiveness...eight out of ten vaccinated people would be protected, nine out of ten vaccinated people would be protected, etc...vaccinations are one tool for good health but it is not 100% effective.

I would suggest viewing the documentary “Demographic Winter” for a better understanding as to why the liberals would think this way...

“And how soon will the China ‘one child per family’ policy come from these pigs?”

This would not harm them too much...conservatives and Christians tend to have much larger families then liberals. Our problem is that we also tend to send our children to public schools to learn from the liberals...I just don’t understand why...

Now that home schooling is growing they (the liberals) need to reduce the family size...

“Yes...what is currently being vaccinated for that is so deadly

Diphtheria, Pertussis, Tetanus, Influenza, Polio, Mumps, Rubella and Meningitis.”

From the CDC website...

Diphtheria...In the last ten years there has only been 5 cases in the U.S. per year.

Pertussis...from 2004 to 2009 there were 121 total deaths of which 110 of them were from infants under 3 months of age...the first dose of the vaccine is offered at 2 months of age.

Tetanus...before the vaccine there were fewer then 500 cases each year and there are fewer cases now.

Polio...”there are no cases of polio in the U.S.”...no polio cases have originated in the U.S. in 20 years.

Mumps...there were two outbreaks in 2006 and 2009 when a couple thousand people became sick...I could not find any fatalities mentioned.

Rubella...”Rubella is no longer circulating naturally in the U.S.”

Meningitis...from 1994 to 1998 there were fewer then 10 fatal cases per year.

Influenza...the estimates are that 3000 people die each year from complications caused by the flu.

Did vaccines help to bring us to this point...I would say yes (as a stated earlier). But it appears that we are now vaccinating against a very small threat...a person is much more likely to die from a car accident then any and all of these deceases combined. Which brings us back to the original post about the concern of catching one of these deceases while in the doctor office...not very likely.

I am not "anti-vaccine", my family does have some of the vaccines. We have looked at the information available and made decisions based upon risk factors and age/health of each child to determine our course of action...all with our doctor's blessing.

From this discussion it has become apparent to me that you do not want to discuss information. I quoted from the CDC website about smallpox and I get...”No one gets smallpox anymore?”...to answer that question...According to the CDC no body gets smallpox anymore.

“There's a list of nasty diseases they have vaccines to prevent. You need a list?”

Yes...what is currently being vaccinated for that is so deadly and how many people in the United States die from those diseases each year? Of those that do die, how many were vaccinated for the disease versus not vaccinated? Without this information a person cannot make a logical decision about the current benefits of each vaccine.

“Is any of your evidence based on the autism liar from England?”

I do not even know who you are talking about. Most of the information I have comes from the CDC and various medical guides and journals that I own (Harvard, Mayo, etc.)

“They haven't outlawed stupidity.”

More name calling...good luck in convincing somebody too your way of thinking with that.

I guess I am done with this discussion...or lack of.

“We could look at the number who die from smallpox.”

I think you might want to rethink your example...from the CDC website...”The last case of smallpox in the United States was in 1949. The last naturally occurring case in the world was in Somalia in 1977.” As a result small pox is not even on the list of vaccines now advised. Since my oldest child was born in the 1990’s why would I want my children vaccinated against small pox? Did vaccination help in removing small pox as a threat...YES...but the threat is now removed so there is no need to vaccinate for it. The question then turns to what is currently being vaccinated for that offers such a major threat that you are willing to call parents “idiots”...

“I'd rather not call you an idiot”

I really don't care what you call me...it speaks more about you then it does me. I have looked at the current evidence and made a decision which is my right as a free American...until people that disagree decide to make America less free and mandate vaccines...

“Healthy people should visit the doctor regularly for checkups, of course. And in between if anything comes up or you don’t feel well.”

Something that we agree upon...

My point was that if a person takes the full list of vaccinations, shouldn't they at some point need to visit the doctor less? I believe the reason most people take vaccinations is so that they will not get the disease...and so they should be healthier. So the “if anything comes up or you don’t feel well” should be fewer...I would think. But from my experience the people that I know that have not been vaccinated tend to visit the doctor office less then those that have been vaccinated (my friends do talk about this) for the times when they don't feel well...the ones that have not been vaccinated seem to be healthier over all...

“Children dying because their idiot parents didn't get them vaccinated is not humorous.”

How to even respond to such a statement...it appears we are starting with the name calling even before having a serious discussion. Is there a study out there that shows the percentage of children that are vaccinated against a disease that then die from that disease versus those that are not vaccinated for that same disease that die from it? (an apples to apples comparison) What percentage of the population is vaccinated versus not vaccinated? How many cases of the diseases that we have vaccines for are reported in this country each year...and how many actually die from them? How many cases of those diseases are from people already vaccinated for that disease versus not vaccinated?

I have made a decision with in my own family based upon the information that I have seen so far...and it sure appears to be working (in some circles this would be called freedom). If you think that you have better information then please share it...calling me an “idiot parent” will not change my mind after the research I have put into this area.

I had to think through this last ping...”I wasn’t aware that vaccines got rid of the need to visit the doctor regularly.”...Of course part of the reason for vaccines is so that the person can remain healthy. And if you are healthy, why would you need to visit the doctor regularly? And yet people are going to the doctor more now then they have in the past...why? I have been to the doctor five times total in the last ten years...I know some people that have been to the doctor that many times in the last ten weeks. My children go in for their regular physicals and always receive complements from the doctor on how healthy they are...I am not saying that not vaccinating them is the only reason for this but I believe it helps. We had started the vaccinating of our first born and needed to see the doctor several times a month for the first six months (a lot of ear infections) but then decided not to continue the vaccinations and everything cleared up...

“Especially the unvaccinated dead ones.”

I assume that this was a poor attempt at humor...

Since the vast majority of the population gets vaccinated then I would have to assume that the vast majority of people who died this year where vaccinated...

“Do you find that people think they have to make excuses to you for not having more children, when you've never said anything to them on the subject?”

Yes...I here it often, and normally it is about the money. Over the last several years (since joining FR) I have been more blunt about challenging them on their excuses. I often point out those same things...$300,000 house (3000 sq. ft.) for mom, dad, and one child...three new cars in the garage (only two drivers)...spending $100 a month on cable/satellite TV...I try to point out that it will cost no extra money to heat the house, pay the mortgage, watch the TV with three children versus one child. My feeling is that the real issue is not about money but that they do not want to spend the extra TIME on another child...

I do not think you fully understood my question...

I understand the difference of the doctor office but those same people that go to the doctor normally also go to the bank, walmart, and church...making contact with the same people that they would make contact with at the doctor office...a lot of the people leave the doctor office and go to walmart to fill the prescription.

The main part of my question was actually about the assumption that the un-vaccinated are at the doctor office do to an illness that they could have been vaccinated for. People go to the doctor office for several reasons...some of them go to get vaccinated...which be the way means they are not vaccinated at the time they are sitting in the waiting room.

“Many people who are chronically ill w/certain types of diseases; or, those who require immunosuppresive drug therapy (such as transplant patients), cannot be effectively immunized; therefore, they must rely upon “herd immunity”

And do most of these people become ill with exposure to illness that we have vaccines for...or is a common cold more commonly the larger danger. If so, wouldn't a better solution be separate waiting rooms for people in this condition?

“Hypothetically, I might know by the doctor’s stated policy.”

I have never heard of a doctor who has stated that they do not advice vaccination (but their might be a small quantity out there)...so yes you would most likely never know...so your original statement really is a none starter.

“...so I don’t worry about that, either.”

Being on the other side of this conversation I would agree...I cannot change the full herd so it is not something that I should worry about. My biggest concern of one of my children becoming ill happens when we go to the doctor office...where the majority of the people are vaccinated...and yet still need the doctor's help...

“All babies in a pediatric office are vulnerable to diseases carried by unvaccinated children”

As well as diseases carried by vaccinated children...

I understand the term “herd immunity” but how is the doctor office any different then the local walmart, bank, church, etc.? I think the assumption in this discussion is that the people in the doctor office are there do to an illness that they could have been vaccinated for...I just don't see that as a credible assumption.

“I would just take my family and my business elsewhere if the doctor’s waiting room was always full of un-vaccinated folks.”

How would you ever know? Medical records are supposed to be private. My experience has been that the un-vaccinated tend not to need doctor care as often as those that are vaccinated (from conversations with parents). I would think that you would have more contact with un-vaccinated folks at schools, stores, sporting events, church, etc...would you take you business elsewhere?

All of the doctors we have worked with so far have no problem with the fact that we do not vaccinate...and they even comment when they see our children that they are some of the healthiest they have seen.

Around here most seem to think that more then two children is a large family...three of four would be “really large” and in their minds it would be to much work. I am somewhat surprised by this since I live in the middle of farm country where large families were common just a generation ago.

I too have been questioned about my income (less then what your husband earns) because I have seven children. What really is telling to me is that the ones that ask me the most about the money side of raising a large family are people that I know are making a lot more then I am...bank presidents and vice presidents, owners of real estate companies, etc...and yet their children (never more then two per family) always want to hang out at our house because we have more things to do at the house...they can play pool, ping pong, air hockey, Foosball, video games (five different systems), watch movies, read books (thousands of books) and interact with different animals on the farm. All this on a modest income and no debt. It really is about where we place our priorities.