Limited Atonement

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_46.html ^ | 4/21/02 | Rev. G. Van Baren

[RnMomof7]

For Discussion

[RnMomof7]

Bump

[drstevej]

Add 2 Peret 2:1 to the discussion

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them,

The point is the Lord is said to have bought these false teachers who deny Him.

[drstevej]

Peret = Peter in previous post.

[P-Marlowe]

Good scripture for this discussion. The Lord bought these false teachers, but they denied him. How can this be?

If the Lord bought only the "elect" on the cross, then these false teachers bringing in damnable heresies were the elect! They had to be. So can a person bring in damnable heresy to the Church, deny the Lord that bought them and still be "elect?"

Help me Mom. I'm confused.

[lockeliberty]

The point is the Lord is said to have bought these false teachers who deny Him.

It would seem obvious that these false prophets and teachers professed to know Jesus and thus should have been bought by Jesus but because of their heresy it would bring destruction. I'm not sure this verse tells us the propitation extends to all. This verse by itself is confusing without the near context.

[RnMomof7]

Steve even reading in context I can not see how that impacts on limited atonment??Of couse there are false teachers and false prophets..so????????

[P-Marlowe]

It seems to me that to deny that the Lord bought you on the cross, even if you were not an "elect", would be a heresy. (Perhaps even a damnable one, eh?) Indeed to deny that Christ's atonement was for the sins of the whole world, would be a denial of the ultimate power of the atonement.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[RnMomof7]

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John is writing to the church ..thus the "Not only ours"..meaning the people reading the letter ...but for those not reading that letter..and of course Jesus died for the sins of the world..the atonement is sufficient for all but only efficacious for those that come to Christ..(unless you believe that coming to Jesus is not necessary for salvation)

[P-Marlowe]

You know, Mom. Since you've become a 5 point Calvinist you have become very good at rationalizing the scripture to fit the construct. Why can't you just read what the scripture says and accept it for what it says?

It says the "sins of the whole world" so it must mean the "sins of the whole world." Deal with it. Don't rationalize it. All means all. The world means the the world. Them means them. If you put it all together it means that Jesus died for everyone's sins and not just for the sins of the elect.

Now the challenge is whether Calvinism stands or falls now that it is clear that the Atonement was not a "limited" atonement.

Clearly not everyone's sins are "effectively" forgiven, but that is not the fault of Jesus, is it? No! Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Not just the Church. Not just the readers of the letter. Don't twist the scripture. Read it. Digest it. Deal with it.

[RnMomof7]

Christ sacfifice is sufficent for all but only effective for those that come..or are you a univeralist??

[P-Marlowe]

Christ sacfifice is sufficent for all but only effective for those that come..or are you a univeralist??

I will accept that. What does it mean for Calvinists? If Jesus died in the place of every man for everyone's sins, then did Jesus love everyone? (John 3:16)

Did Jesus intend that everyone to come to salvation? (2Pe 3:9)

If Jesus died for everyone's sins and he intended his sacrifice to cover the sins of the whole world, then why is it that people don't come to Christ? If it is God's will that all come to salvation and some don't, then is God's will thwarted, or did God intend that man actually has a say in whether or not to accept or reject the sacrifice that was geven on his behalf?

And by that I mean TRULY accept or TRULY reject.

[lockeliberty]

. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, {returns} to wallowing in the mire."

When you read the context of the verse you can understand that the false teachers once acknowledged Jesus and then turned back to the "defilements" of the world. Thus, though once they knew Christ and his sacrifice, later they rejected Christ's sacrifice. The question is, once they knew Christ's sacrifice and the sacrifice was sufficient, now that they deny the sacrifice is it still sufficient for them?

[RnMomof7]

If Jesus died for everyone's sins and he intended his sacrifice to cover the sins of the whole world, then why is it that people don't come to Christ? If it is God's will that all come to salvation and some don't, then is God's will thwarted, or did God intend that man actually has a say in whether or not to accept or reject the sacrifice that was geven on his behalf?

That is the question isn't it?? Do you think the ones that do come are smarter or holier or more clever? There is a reason all do not come..eithor all come that God foreordained or God is unable to do what He wishes and have all men saved..or those that do come are some how superior me???:>)))

[RnMomof7]

typo alert .....the "me "is not supposed to be there:>)

[drstevej]

"Many people, because they had heard that he had given this miraculous sign, went out to meet him. 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world [greek = cosmos] has gone after him!” -- John 12:18-19

Does world in this context mean all people who have ever lived and will ever live? Obviously not. The scope of the term world must be determined by context. Otherwise, this passage makes no sense. In this passage the word world is hyperbole and means "a whole lot of folks!"

[P-Marlowe]

That was the pharisees using hyperbole. It wasn't Jesus speaking. It wasn't God's word, it was the word of the Pharisees. You will need a better verse than that to show that when Jesus said the whole world, Jesus did not mean the whole world!

Was our Lord prone to this same hyperbole as the Pharisees? I think not. Prove me wrong.

[drstevej]

The point is that the passage says the Master (Jesus) bought [greek = agorazo -- meaning literally 'to purchase in the market place', redeem] these false teachers / heretics resulting in their swift destruction [greek = apoleia -- destruction, utter ruin, hell].

This is not an easy passage to fit into a Limited atonement schema.

[sola gracia]

You know, Mom. Since you've become a 5 point Calvinist you have become very good at rationalizing the scripture to fit the construct. Why can't you just read what the scripture says and accept it for what it says?

In light of what you just said, are you ready to accept this verse for what it says? "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." Acts 13:48 NIV

[P-Marlowe]

The question is, once they knew Christ's sacrifice and the sacrifice was sufficient, now that they deny the sacrifice is it still sufficient for them?

Good question. I think this verse argues against the "perserverence of the saints" prong of Calvinism. I think we must note here that while dogs return to their vomit, sheep are led back to the pasture.

The question is not really whether the sacrifice is sufficient for even these, but whether or not it is effective for them. If you reject the sacrifice, then the sacrifice will not do you any good. If someone offers you a million bucks it isn't going to do you any good unless you reach out and take it.