Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:awKbhBecxmwC:www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Suffering/GodAndEvil.htm+Piper+Is+god+the+Author+of+sin%3F&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 ^ | 8/18/02 | John Piper

[RnMomof7]

Grace Bump

[Cvengr]

Thanks for the read.

[Jean Chauvin]

When one finally understands, then accepts God's active providence of every single event -even the travel of particles of dust as Spurgeon says- one finally realizes the comfort of the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The Bible is not an instruction book in order that we are given the directions we need to 'pass the test' of our own accomplishment. This wonderful book we call the Bible tells us the Good News of God's Saving Plan through the Mercy of Christ's accomplishment on the cross. By his resurection from the dead, we are assured of our eternal place to give praise to the Living Savior for all eternity -all by his hand, not ours!

All is in control of God and I can rest in Him! What a liberating and wonderful knowledge! I needn't ~worry~ about what will happen -all is by God for his good pleasure and for his glory!

1st Q&A of the Heidelberg Catechism Dittos!

Let go and acknowlege God's complete and sovereign control!

Jean

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But when a person settles it Biblically, intellectually and emotionally that God has ultimate control of all things, including evil, and that this is gracious and precious beyond words, then a marvelous stability and depth come into that person's life and they develop a God-entranced world view.

What a great, uplifting Saturday night post. Thanks, RnMom.

...in the day of your loss, you will be like Job...

[He Rides A White Horse]

I don't know Momof7....I'm looking at Revelation 2:12, and I'm sticking to it.

[He Rides A White Horse]

Most of us don’t know that he is considered now, by secular and evangelical historians alike, to be the greatest religious thinker America has ever produced . . .

We have to be very cautious of these types of statements, MomofSeven.........deepest regards, HRAWH.

[xzins]

Sorry, Rn, but God is less glorious if he is responsible for designing specific evil choices.

If we say, "God created free creatures and they will make bad choices" that is one thing.

If we say, "God designed this murder so that Mr Y would die on this particular day," then that is entirely another thing.

[Jemian]

Bump

[RnMomof7]

Sorry, Rn, but God is less glorious if he is responsible for designing specific evil choices.

     Deu 8:2   And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, [and] to prove thee, to know what [was] in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

You would rather had evil be the defeater of God and man Gods superior

You would rasther have this world a crap shoot with no one in charge

God hates evil..but not one event happens on this earth without His approval and without it being a part of His plan

God is God xzins you are not!

[xzins]

without His approval and without it being a part of His plan

I can buy the 1st part but not the second IF you mean that God designed a particular evil act. I think the Westminster Confession makes effort to remove God a step from specific evil acts. Is that right?

[Don'tMessWithTexas]

The truth of the sovereignty of God over evil is one of the most comforting thoughts in Scripture. In the face of great loss, it provides comforr knowing that God is in absolute control. The problem with man is that we want to define God's love and compassion using human standards. God's love and wisdom far outstrip anything imagined by man. Furthermore, God is righteous and holy. Hence, everything that comes from his hand has a holy and righteous aim.

If the harvest fails, a baby dies, a business fails, what comfort is there if God is not in complete control of everything? This awful world would be even more miserable knowing that my heavenly Father cannot use evil for His redemptive purpose.

[RnMomof7]

God is not the "author " of evil.

Evil is the design of man BUT not one thing eithor good or evil happens without God permission.. God being sovereign in this world designed man and knows his choices before he is ever born. He is in charge

[RnMomof7]

If the harvest fails, a baby dies, a business fails, what comfort is there if God is not in complete control of everything? This awful world would be even more miserable knowing that my heavenly Father cannot use evil for His redemptive purpose.

Exactly ! What comfort can God give if he is a victim of random acts Himself..where do you run then for safety ? Why do you pray?

     Hab 3:10   The mountains saw thee, [and] they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, [and] lifted up his hands on high.

     Hab 3:11   The sun [and] moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, [and] at the shining of thy glittering spear.

     Hab 3:12   Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

     Hab 3:13   Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, [even] for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

     Hab 3:14   Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing [was] as to devour the poor secretly.   

  Hab 3:15   Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, [through] the heap of great waters.

     Hab 3:16   When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.   

  Hab 3:17   Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither [shall] fruit [be] in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and [there shall be] no herd in the stalls:

     Hab 3:18   Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

     Hab 3:19   The LORD God [is] my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' [feet], and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

[xzins]

Rn, I don't have time to go into it now....gotta run to Sunday School/Church. But I'm pretty sure that the Westminster Confession is worded so that God is one step removed from actually designing the acts of depravity.

I'm not saying that I'm a calvinist and that I buy your position, but I don't think you're doing justice to it in the way you're wording things. (And it could be that I'm dense and have no idea what I'm talking about. :^) )

[drstevej]

CHAPTER III
Of God’s Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[65] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[66] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[67]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,[68] yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[69]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels[70] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[71]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[72]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[73] out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;[74] and all to the praise of his glorious grace.[75]

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[76] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[77] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[78] and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation.[79] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[80]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[81]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[82] that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[83] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[84] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[85]

[ponyespresso]

OK, I want to get down to brass tacks here and figure out how all this works in real life.

I live in Norwich England. Near where I live (a small village in Cambridgeshire) two weeks ago two 10 year old girls who were best friends went missing. Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman went out for a walk together one evening and never returned. Their dead bodies have just been found in a field this weekend and a couple from the village are being held for the murder of these two schoolgirls.

Questions:

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen? Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Interesting questions. I will be watching for the answers, and also pray for the families of these girls.

I believe God foreknew these events and the good that comes from them that we are able to know is that these little souls went straight to be with Him, which for believing parents would be a great comfort.

Becky

[P-Marlowe]

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

IMO Yes. God is omniscient. His omniscience is not limited to the preesent. He knows everything that there is to know about the past, the present and the future.

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen?

IMO yes. Everything that happens is foreordained. If God does not ordain something it does not happen. It is allowed to happen because God has ordained it so.

Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

IMO if you think that God "caused" this to happen, then the answer is no. The evil perpetrators caused this to happen. God allowed it to happen because in the end, it will work together for good. We don't know why, we have to trust God on that one.

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

Foreordination does not mean that God forced the incident to happen. IMO it means that God saw the situation and how the situation would ulitmately work to His Glory and he then foreordained it. Then as a result of God's permissive will, it happened.

God also foreordained that you would ask the question.

[RnMomof7]

I answer from MY understanding . I will let the Pastors give an "offical answer"

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

Of course God knows all things.. The number of our days are written in His book

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen? Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

In the sense that He CHOOSE not to intervene God predestined it. God foreknew that the man was going to commit that crime. He did not interfer with the free will of that man to do as he willed to do

As Dr Steve posted

Of God’s Eternal Decree I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[65] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[66] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[67]

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

God knows when a bird will fall from the sky..so we can safely assume that He knew that this man would commit this evil deed

God allowed it to occur. He did not interfer with the action of that mans "free will".

The alternative Arminian choice is God foreknew it did not want to be bothered and let the chips fall where they may (real fatalism).

Or open Theology saying that God has no clue what is going to happen here and it is every man for himself..