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Stop the universe, it's leaving us behind (faster-than-light expansion)
Sydney Morning Herald ^ | 3/21/02 | Richard Macey

Posted on 03/20/2002 6:47:11 AM PST by dead

Wave goodbye to the universe. The expansion of the universe, which began about 15 billon years ago with the Big Bang, is mysteriously getting faster, Australian and British astronomers say.

However, they admitted yesterday they did not have a clue what "dark energy" was driving the galaxies to defy gravity and fly apart with ever increasing speed.

"We don't understand the physical process," said Matthew Colless, of the Australian National University.

But, "eventually the universe will accelerate so rapidly the more distant galaxies we can see today will move away faster than the speed of light and will disappear over the horizon."

Expansion faster than light is possible because, not only are galaxies flying apart at extraordinary speeds, but space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies away with it.

Until 1998 astrophysicists were debating whether gravity was slowing the expansion enough to eventually cause the universe to collapse in a Big Crunch.

That year other astronomers, including Brian Schmidt, of the ANU's Mount Stromlo Observatory, near Canberra, produced the first solid evidence that the expansion was accelerating.

Studying exploding stars, they found that the more distant ones were fainter - and thus further - than seemed possible. They concluded an accelerating universe was to blame.

"It was a huge surprise," Dr Schmidt recalled yesterday. "I was rather scared to go out and tell people. I thought they'd laugh me off the planet."

Dr Colless, one of the first he told, was "shaking his head".

The new project, involving the ANU, the University of NSW, the Anglo-Australian Observatory near Coonabarabran, and British scientists, led by Cambridge Professor George Efstathiou, used a different method to reach the same finding.

They spent five years mapping the position and speed of 220,000 galaxies. They then compared the data with microwave radio charts of other scientists to "map" the universe as it was 150,000 years after the Big Bang - before the first galaxies even lit up. They found that only an accelerating universe would have allowed it to grow to today's size.

"Now we have two independent pieces of evidence that both give exactly the same answer," Dr Colless said. "I didn't believe Brian at first ... you have to rearrange the mental furniture."

While most galaxies would vanish from view, the Milky Way, and its nearest neighbours, glued together by gravity, would travel on alone. Dr Schmidt said the confirmation was "great news for me. I can sleep a little better. It's evidence we didn't screw up four years ago."


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To: tim politicus
An apology: In the above, while referring to the 'religious', I meant the 'religious per se'.

I myself am religious in a manner, but ***not*** in my science.
141 posted on 03/25/2002 12:44:00 AM PST by tim politicus
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To: Stultis
I know what 'dark matter' is driving all this. And that same dark matter is driving most of the promotion on campus today.
142 posted on 03/25/2002 12:52:36 AM PST by tim politicus
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To: tim politicus
I thought 'dark matter' was the stuff between the brains of the typical RAT voter.
143 posted on 03/25/2002 1:21:01 AM PST by Huusker
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To: tim politicus
'We' (unfortunately not the royal one) are told that space itself is rapidly expanding [what a wonderfully unmeasureable phenomena!] in such a manner as to cause the matter in it to actually move faster than the light which it emits.

Wrong. The matter is not moving faster than light. The *relative* velocities of points that are extremely seperated may be faster than light.

Seriously, were do I start?

I suggest learning the subject, and not confusing your ignorance with superiority.

Please do reflect on this though: The fact that c is no longer universally understood as constant should by itself tell us that the scientific view is, even in its most assumed or enshrined form, changing. And not always (though usually) for the better.

c as a constant has not been changed. Read the article again. Regardless, why shouldn't the scientific view change with new information? That's what science does. That's the very thing that makes science a way to find the truth and not a belief system, as you so ignorantly characterize it.

[e.g., A number of ancient Greek scientists were aware of a heli-centric astronomy, but the view adopted and held for over 1500 years was the ptolemaic.]

This has what to do with the subject?

But to return to my rant, even if one believed the idea that space ***itself*** expands in this manner, one would have to question why the 'waves' which travel through the assumed [but unproven] etheric (another old idea alternatively worshiped and abandoned) medium would not correspondingly expand, 'expanding' the speed of light along with them.

The ether was never "worshipped", and nobody is assuming it now. That's a dumb thing to say.

Any such effect would be very small. The expansion is a tiny *local* effect, the expansion velocities increase with *relative* distance.

As I suspected, your ranting stems from you just not liking the answers, or at least not liking your misunderstanding of the answers.

I could go on. Honestly though, why should I have all the fun? Why don't you see if ***you*** could find anything to question in all this.

You could, but I'd advise against it. You're just going to make yourself look even sillier.

144 posted on 03/25/2002 6:47:21 AM PST by mlo
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To: week 71
Engineers, physicists and other well-defined "scientists" put men on the moon. I have about as much use for the "just so" stories of cosmologists as I have for the stories from the majority of evolutionists.
145 posted on 03/26/2002 3:05:22 PM PST by adakotab
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To: adakotab
Being a creationist myself I encourage the pursuit of scientific endeavors because they are constantly finding evidence of intelligent design.
146 posted on 03/26/2002 6:22:36 PM PST by week 71
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To: Henchster
So what's on the other side? You know, the "non-universe" side?

A few years ago I put the same question on a different internet forum to a big brained phd type guy. He said, "Well, it's hard to say. If it's out there, you can't get there until the universe gets there. You can't see it until the universe gets there. Everything that we perceive is perceived in one way or another through the mechanics of space. So, no mechanics, no space."

Ya, it is a troublesome idea, but as Mad Daugg would agree, so is New Jersey.

147 posted on 03/28/2002 10:07:32 AM PST by powderhorn
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