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The Mistaken Revolution - Vatican II
PipeBombNews ^ | May 20 , 2002 | William A. Mayer Jr.

Posted on 05/21/2002 10:07:10 AM PDT by johnqueuepublic

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To: berned
A mild, hit-and-run question for Protestants, because I have to go paint my porch: Where in the Bible does it say sola scriptura?

You need some sort of teaching authority to interpret scriptures. The Jews had an oral tradition that went along with the Torah, and have developed many written traditions of varying authority as well.

The Theory of Evolution is not a point of Catholic doctrine. The Pope has said that Catholics may consider it, as long as they agree that all humanity is descended from a first couple, whom the Bible names Adam and Eve.

Personally, I think Darwin's General Theory of Evolution is a load of unscientific hogwash. But I don't believe that God probably created the universe around 4000 BC, because I find it hard to believe that He would have bothered to create all those fossils, ancient rocks, or a stellar universe that seems to require billions of years to produce the heavy elements--and faked the whole thing just to make fun of modern scientists.

Parts of the Bible are literal, parts are metaphorical, and parts are arguable as to which they are. I believe in the historical existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. But it doesn't really matter, for the essentials of the faith, whether or not Job was a real man, or a figure in an extended parable told to illustrate a point. In the same way Jesus' story of the Good Samaritan doesn't depend on whether such a person ever existed. I reserve judgment on Job's historical existence, but not on the moral and spiritual lesson the book teaches. I believe in the actuality of Moses, because I believe that a real, living God acted in history, not in fable, and therefore spoke to and through particular people.

21 posted on 05/21/2002 11:34:46 AM PDT by Cicero
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To: johnqueuepublic
shocker: bureacracies, even in religion, act to solidify and maintain their power. franchise of man as in the state, or franchise of man in the name of a church, not God, incidentally. Thats why catholics and protestants dont tithe each other.

just something for consideration.

22 posted on 05/21/2002 11:35:36 AM PDT by galt-jw
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To: johnqueuepublic
Because if absolutely everything in the Bible is taken as fact, you end up having to believe that the sun rotates around the earth.

Two questions.

1) Where in the Bible does it ever assert that the sun revolves around the earth?

2) If, as YOU say, the Bible is not to be taken literally, then why should Jesus's vague comment to Peter about "a rock" lead to the multi-trillion dollar Roman Catholic Empire with it's resultant Inquisitions where people were tortured and murdered for refusing to bow to Roman Catholicism's demand for subservience?

23 posted on 05/21/2002 11:35:59 AM PDT by berned
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To: berned
why should Jesus's vague comment to Peter about "a rock" lead to the multi-trillion dollar Roman Catholic Empire with it's resultant Inquisitions where people were tortured and murdered for refusing to bow to Roman Catholicism's demand for subservience?

because the church claims to be the only official church of Christ. but, Christ never said this. He gave two commandments, thats it. The preponderance of what He said about organized religion, the Pharisees and Saducees, was to condemn them.

the church, and others like them who claim to be the Way, when Jesus said "I am the Way", contradict this statement, the cornerstone of Christian belief.

to maintain power and control, a church or govt. must franchise SOMETHING, either salvation of soul or rights of man. without something to represent as a value to the subjects, they are robbed of relevance and power.

24 posted on 05/21/2002 11:43:33 AM PDT by galt-jw
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To: Cicero
But if you don't believe the Bible's Genesis account, why do you believe Jesus's words about rocks and keys to the kingdom, etc. Do you believe that in the Old Testament God was mostly lying, but in the New Testament, God cleans up His act and starts telling the truth?

What basis do you have for disbelieving Job was a real man who actually lived?

25 posted on 05/21/2002 11:46:30 AM PDT by berned
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To: johnqueuepublic
The real battleground is the seminaries, for it is here where young men intent on devoting their lives to God and duty to the Church will be trained, but it is becoming increasingly clear that young straight men of conservative beliefs are being turned away, in droves, by an entrenched pro-homosexual minority that is intent on promoting ultra-modernist theology and driving straights away:

I have heard this bandied about much recently, is there any (a sincere question, not an attempt to inflame) objective evidence for it?

26 posted on 05/21/2002 11:57:20 AM PDT by dmz
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To: berned
You seem to believe that since Catholics don't take the Bible literally, we don't take any of it seriously at all. It takes a little common sense, and some knowledge of history to know which verses of Scripture are to be taken literally and which are meant figuratively. Allow me to illustrate.

I'll paraphrase Jesus: "If it is your eye that causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it away. If it is your hand that causes you to sin, cut it off. For it is better to enter the Kingdom missing an eye or a hand than to be rejected whole."

If we followed all of the Bible literally, Christians would certainly be easy to identify, wouldn't we? Obviously Christ was using hyperbole to get his point across, that we should avoid the causes and near occasions of sin. He did this often. What do you think His parables were about, after all?

Taking the Bible literally and claiming it is the only outlet of the Word of God leads Christianity into an intellectual trap. Certain verses of Scripture clearly contradict each other if taken literally and no other knowledge of history and conventions of the time are taken into account. If it is all to be taken literally, and contradicts itself to the literal-minded reader, then it certainly loses its credibility real fast, doesn't it? This fact has been used to discredit Christianity, allowing secularism to take hold to the extent that it has.

As for the evolution and creation question, Catholics are free to consider whatever scientific explanation they wish, within reason. We do believe that man is descended from Adam and Eve. Some Catholics do believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, and theorize that just as God created Adam as a grown man, He may well have created fossils for us to discover. Perhaps their purpose is that we are to satisfy our intellectual curiosity trying to find their origins.

27 posted on 05/21/2002 11:59:57 AM PDT by GenXFreedomFighter
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: berned
Joshua commanded, [by the power of God] the sun to stand still to lengthen the day.

It follows that if that is the mechanism for lengthening the day that the sun roatates around the earth.

It was actually included as part of Scopes cross of Wm Jennings Bryan.

Evolution and faith are not incompatible.

29 posted on 05/21/2002 12:02:16 PM PDT by johnqueuepublic
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To: GenXFreedomFighter
Well said X'er!
30 posted on 05/21/2002 12:03:51 PM PDT by johnqueuepublic
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To: allend
The people the Inqusition went after were probably a lot like Dashcle, Gephardt and Hillary.
31 posted on 05/21/2002 12:10:24 PM PDT by johnqueuepublic
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To: johnqueuepublic
It follows that if that is the mechanism for lengthening the day that the sun roatates around the earth

You misrepresented yourself. This was a miracle that occurred on ONE DAY ONLY. The Bible does not err scientifically in that it posits the sun ALWAYS, HABITUALLY, revolves around the earth, as your note # 19 implies.

If you believe that God created the heavens and the earth, you must accept that He reserves the right, (and has the power) to make miracles.

32 posted on 05/21/2002 12:15:10 PM PDT by berned
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To: johnqueuepublic
So it was TWO decades after Vatican I.
33 posted on 05/21/2002 12:18:16 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: GenXFreedomFighter
If it is all to be taken literally, and contradicts itself to the literal-minded reader, then it certainly loses its credibility real fast, doesn't it?

You mean like the part about where Jesus makes a vague statement to Peter about him being "a rock", and a bunch of people said that that statement gives them the right to torture and murder people who refuse to bend their knee in submission to some guy in a pointy hat?

34 posted on 05/21/2002 12:18:51 PM PDT by berned
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To: johnqueuepublic
Actually, it was the Hitlerys, Dassholes, and Little Dicks that were running the Inquisition. From what I've read, the murderous excesses of the Inquisition were committed by state interests, killing off political opponents and rabble-rousers. They used the moral authority of the Church (for there was no separation of church and state in those days) to legitimize their lust for power. Kind of like the way Slick Willie was always seen in black churches around DC ;-)

The Church was culpable in that the popes knew this was going on, but didn't do much to discourage or put a stop to it.

35 posted on 05/21/2002 12:21:30 PM PDT by GenXFreedomFighter
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To: GipperCT
Forgetting that the Catholic church began as a split from the Greek Orthodox in 1054 are we? The Greek Orthodox church is the only church that can trace it's roots back to the Apostles.

A silly mischaracterization of Church history. Neither one "began" when the schism occured. Both the Western and Eastern Churches easily trace their roots to the apostles. The schism between them is the greatest wound to the body of Christ since the crucifixion.

36 posted on 05/21/2002 12:22:30 PM PDT by Snuffington
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To: berned
Don't make me mention the literal-minded Puritans who burned witches at the stake in Salem...oops, I just did.
37 posted on 05/21/2002 12:23:31 PM PDT by GenXFreedomFighter
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To: berned
I believe in God's right to make miracles, I think the current meltdown of the Democrat party is one of them, but the inference is clear in the passage even if it is only for one day.
38 posted on 05/21/2002 12:24:40 PM PDT by johnqueuepublic
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To: Arthur McGowan; johnqueuepublic
Rerum Novarum was, by the way, discussed at FR last year primarily from a libertarian perspective:

Pursuit of Liberty: Rerum Novarum. 1-15, Man and Property
Pursuit of Liberty: Rerum Novarum. 16-30, The Church, the Rich, and the Poor
Pursuit of Liberty: Rerum Novarum. 31-47, The State
Pursuit of Liberty: Rerum Novarum. 48-End, The Civil Society

39 posted on 05/21/2002 12:26:24 PM PDT by annalex
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To: GenXFreedomFighter
Either way works for me, Clinton went to the Baptist Church in DC its not their fault.
40 posted on 05/21/2002 12:27:02 PM PDT by johnqueuepublic
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