Security Hole Striptease

Security Focus ^ | May 27, 2002 | Tim Mullen

[PatrioticAmerican]

"MS stuff not working as advertised."

You stretch the truth again, Harr. I said that I have never had a Microsoft product fail to the point that it was unusable. Sure, I have had IIS crash, and Exchange crash, but I have also had the UNIX mail servers crash and Apache bit the dust. Never have I had to abandon a project using a Microsoft product.

You have twisted what I said to become a lie. Again, you lie because you are afraid to face reality, and that reality is that Microsoft is competing is the industry like it never has before. .NET SCARES you to death.

[Dominic Harr]

What is so special about software that makes it unlike, say, pharmaceuticals?

Pharmaceuticals are heavily tested before they're allowed to be sold to the public.

Interesting point, in fact, as it is a perfect example for what I mean. Once upon a time, pharmaceuticals put cocaine in cough syrup because they didn't have to tell anyone what went into their products. Only forcing them to publicly label the pharmaceuticals put an end to it.

Are you advocating a return to those days? Somehow I doubt it . . .

And we're not just talking about bugs and holes. Spyware is becoming a problem with software. I write financial information systems, and if I were of such a mind to, I could build in some pretty "useful" spyware.

Once upon a time, companies didn't want to release what they put into sausage

[PatrioticAmerican]

"Are you the best developer in the world? "

No, Harr. Just competent, something you will never be.

[Bush2000]

And you have the time to review the 44,000,000+ lines of code in Windows XP? You argument makes no practical sense.

It's worse than that: He expects your mom or my grandmother to review source code now as a practical test of whether an operating system is useful. What an aquamaroon.

Second, are you expert enough to understand the complexity of the operating system and all of its subsystems? Ya, know, it is not written in Java. ;>

Bingo. See above point.

You don't know the metal in the frame of your care or engine, the metal of the aircraft you last flew in, or the pesticides used in that last green bean you ate, so why try to hammer Microsoft for not sharing their internal secrets?

Please ... don't confuse him with logic. Thinking is so hard.

Face it, you HATE Microsoft, and your efforts show your bias. You have stated in many ways that you want them out of business.

Considering that he seems to post little else but an endless diatribe against MS, I might have to concur. Fear is a motivating factor.

[Dominic Harr]

Never have I had to abandon a project using a Microsoft product.

So IIS crashing didn't cause you to abandon IIS as a tool? Problems with MS tools didn't cause you to abandon the tools, instead you claim you just gave your client a defective product.

Yep, that is the MS way!

I repeat -- I don't believe you're a developer. You're a salesman.

Sell it to someone else. The other folks here might not have the experiences that I have, that cause me to doubt you. Good luck with them.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"It ain't done until Lotus won't run"

More urban legend. It seems everyone calims they can verify this but even in the court cases where someone had rought this up they never have proof.

[Dominic Harr]

It's so cute when the MS salesmen reassure each other that the rest of the world just "hates" MS and is full of "anti-MS bigots".

All that criticism of MS out there, and only the MS salesmen are 'unbiased arbiters of truth'.

Hee.

Most salesmen don't believe their own lies, from my experience, and are just playing word games with 'spin' lines. I wonder -- do ya'll believe your own sales pitch?

[PatrioticAmerican]

Harr, you are a Sun salesman if there ever was one. You beat on Microsoft month after month and claim to have no problem with them. You lie like Hell and make personal claims against people who support Microsoft.

Again, you are not my hero, so don't expect me to impress you. Frankly, I am glad CSC has you on their staff. I can use the break in the market. HA! Guys like you have so much arrogance that the clients can't wait to have us involved and throw you out. You just keep selling your ABM, and I'll just keep racking up the wins.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"The other folks here might not have the experiences that I have"

Harr, you don't have any! You are your best fan! Experiences, what, your "12 web projects"??? Get real. I've put more projects under my belt than you have had birthdays.

[Dominic Harr]

Harr, you are a Sun salesman if there ever was one.

Haahaahahahahahahah!

Sun machines are very good machines, but very overpriced. The 'bang-for-the-buck' just isn't there. I like PC clones, you get more for your money.

McNealy is a dweeb, and I wish he'd step down.

I do like the 'Java' group -- Gosling, etc. I respect them. But I do not care for Sun, beyond that.

Haahahahahahaha!

"MS is the innocent victim. Critics of MS are all bigots. Critics of MS just 'hate' MS. Cricits of MS just suffer from envy."

Yeah, right, if you say so!

[Dominic Harr]

I've put more projects under my belt than you have had birthdays.

Sure, you have.

Uh hunh.

You've no reason to lie about that, now, do you? It's not like you're here selling MS -- oh wait, you are . . .

[Bush2000]

Pharmaceuticals are heavily tested before they're allowed to be sold to the public.

Ever hear of Thalidomide? Fen Phen? Didn't think so. Like software, all human products have bugs in them.

Interesting point, in fact, as it is a perfect example for what I mean. Once upon a time, pharmaceuticals put cocaine in cough syrup because they didn't have to tell anyone what went into their products. Only forcing them to publicly label the pharmaceuticals put an end to it.

A label is not equivalent to releasing the formula, Harr. Nice try. You want a label? Look at the outside of the Windows box. Done.

Are you advocating a return to those days? Somehow I doubt it . . .

Here ya go, Harr: 90% Operating System, 10% Middleware.

And we're not just talking about bugs and holes. Spyware is becoming a problem with software. I write financial information systems, and if I were of such a mind to, I could build in some pretty "useful" spyware.

I have to wonder how having the source code is going to help your mother or my grandmother find spyware.

Once upon a time, companies didn't want to release what they put into sausage

10% pig snouts ain't source code, Harr.

[Bush2000]

I do like the 'Java' group -- Gosling, etc. I respect them. But I do not care for Sun, beyond that.

Like it or not, your future is tied to Sun's. If Sun crashes and burns, the rights to Java crash and burn with it. Somebody will buy those rights at auction and the future of Java will be in serious question because it was never released to a public standards committee.

[Bush2000]

You've no reason to lie about that, now, do you? It's not like you're here selling MS -- oh wait, you are . . .

Who's selling software? We're defending against your endless stream of lies.

[Bush2000]

Most salesmen don't believe their own lies, from my experience, and are just playing word games with 'spin' lines. I wonder -- do ya'll believe your own sales pitch?

Are you going to retract your statement ("It ain't done til Lotus won't run") -- or provide proof?

[Dominic Harr]

If Sun crashes and burns, the rights to Java crash and burn with it.

IBM, HP, Oracle, and literally a thousand other companies make that very unlikely.

In fact, there are many of us that wish Sun would either drop the hardware focus or just spin off the Java division into it's own independent group.

Besides, I'm a developer -- I will just move to the next technology. Could even be .NET, as you already know, I'm working with C# also. I'm technology agnostic. Ironically enough, I'm exactly the type of developer that .NET is going to have to win over if it expects to survive.

I would *never* lock myself into a single vendor, like you have. I have skills, so I don't have to.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"You've no reason to lie about that, now, do you? It's not like you're here selling MS -- oh wait, you are . "

Harr, wanna match them bona fids? I am proud of my past and use it to its fullest advantage.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"I'm exactly the type of developer that .NET is going to have to win over if it expects to survive."

No, Harr. Microsoft needs developers who can consistently provide services without trashing Microsoft. Frankly, Microsoft could care less about you. They care about the customers who use their products in their daily operations. Developers? There are more than are needed as it is.

[PatrioticAmerican]

" Are you going to retract your statement ("It ain't done til Lotus won't run") -- or provide proof?"

You'll have to wait a bit for his response. I hear that slashdot is down for a moment for him to get his programmed response.

[Bush2000]

IBM, HP, Oracle, and literally a thousand other companies make that very unlikely.

The Java Community Process doesn't own Java, Harr. You know that (or should, at any rate). Sun retains all rights to Java. That means if Sun tanks, it takes Java down with it because another company could buy the rights to Java and start charging royalties. Then you'd be royally screwed.

In fact, there are many of us that wish Sun would either drop the hardware focus or just spin off the Java division into it's own independent group.

A rare moment: We actually agree on this point. I consider it to be a strategic mistake for Sun to not release Java to ISO or ECMA.

Besides, I'm a developer -- I will just move to the next technology. Could even be .NET, as you already know, I'm working with C# also. I'm technology agnostic. Ironically enough, I'm exactly the type of developer that .NET is going to have to win over if it expects to survive. I would *never* lock myself into a single vendor, like you have.

I think you'll get a chance to be flexible at the rate things are going for Sun.

I have skills, so I don't have to.

I could be mean and say that janitorial skills are a dime a dozen. But I won't. Oops, I already did.