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Can You Change America? Part 2
Self ^ | 12/08/2002 | B4Ranch

Posted on 12/08/2002 4:40:39 PM PST by B4Ranch

The majority of the replies to the original Can You Change America were repeated complaints about what our elected officials did, did not do, should do, or could do to clear up the nations illegal alien problem. This was well known history by amongst all of us. The solutions that were shared with us frequently rely on these same elected officials to aid us in the remedy.

__________________________________________________

I guess my question is; What makes you continue to think that our leadership is going to aid in the dismantling of programs that they put in place. None of these programs came solely from the Democrats, nor were they solely supported by Democrats? More and more Republicans are walking to the left of center when it comes to these "undocumented migrants".

President Bush is refusing to discuss his policies with the voters on this subject. I think that he is holding off on implementing amnesty until the war with Iraq is finished or at least solidly underway. He could be afraid that we, the people will revolt by withdrawing our support for the war if he slams the door in our face refusing to acknowledge our opinions on illegal immigrants, immigration numbers, open borders, welfare policies, etc. The Enhanced Border Security Act of 2001 was a farce.

We have an environment where "personal responsibility" are dirty words.We can preserve our country. Fight political correctness mind control. Do not celebrate diversity when it means turning a blind eye to immorality, laziness, etc.

So, once again I will promote going against standard procedure and suggest that we the people show our independence by:

We must seek out and elect better leaders by effectively changing the political discourse and taking command of the terms of political debate and the ground upon which political debate occurs.

It's what political movement is all about, and we have the best incentives, motives, and ideas behind us.

Do you have questions about the Immigration and Nationality Act? Look at the INS web page for answers.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
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1 posted on 12/08/2002 4:40:39 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: PatrickHenry; abcraghead; A Vast RightWing Conspirator; MistyCA; Arthur Wildfire! March; ...
Please post any additional ideas that you have thinking they will work in YOUR local communities.
2 posted on 12/08/2002 4:43:14 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Well written!

The number one emphasis should be border safety. No one can argue with that. Entire cities being wiped out is about as bad as it gets. It's easy to understand. It can be explained very quickly. It was proven by Geraldo on Fox News just how willing the smugglers are to bring possible al qaeda members. Border safety is also something that should get attention across the country.

The other aspects help, too. Of course.

FReegards....
3 posted on 12/08/2002 5:04:54 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: B4Ranch
"RE-Impeach!!"
(To be sung to the Fabulous Thunderbird's "Wrap It Up")

I've been stalkin' you for years now, Willie!!
'Cuz I LOATHE yer sleazy ways, you Traitor!!
Ya know my Cause shall never fail, Slick Willie!!
Justice fer Treason...Yer MUD's Bitch, Bill Clinton!!

RE-Impeach...Convict Slick!!
RE-Impeach...Dethrone Him!!

Bill, no more shall you walk around FRee, Willie!!
You know MUD's got the best thing in town now baby.
Right's got all the proof of Treason, Willie!!
Bring your lovin' straight to me now baby.

RE-Impeach...Convict Slick!!
RE-Impeach...Dethrone Him!!
RE-Impeach...De-Pension!!
RE-Impeach...INDICT SLICK!!

(solo)

RE-Impeach...Imprison!!
RE-Impeach...Fer Treason!!

Bill, we're gonna FReep you like the Queen you are...
Sing you sweet songs from MUD's TobackkyBar!!
MUD's got tricks he ain't never used.
Give in, WillieClinton, you shall be abused!!

I've been stalkin' you for years now, Willie!!
'Cuz I LOATHE yer sleazy ways, you Traitor!!
Ya know my Cause shall never fail, Slick Willie!!
Justice fer Treason...Yer MUD's Bitch, Bill Clinton!!

RE-Impeach...Convict Slick!!
RE-Impeach...Dethrone Him!!
RE-Impeach...De-Pension!!
RE-Impeach...INDICT SLICK!!

FReep!! FReep!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...MUD

Felling the TyrantThug BillClinton--politically, legally, and constitutionally--is something we MUST endeavor to accomplish!! 'Cuz to accept the Evil that is so rampant in Bill Clinton's character and his Administration is to accept--and condone--Tyranny!!!

RE-IMPEACH. CONVICT. DETHRONE.
DISBAR. DE-PENSION. DE-LEGITIMIZE.
INDICT. CONVICT. IMPRISON. DISCARD KEY.

5/15/02...I still think we've got to drive the stake in the Clinton years by having a National Debate on how our ex-POTUS is a Liar, Felon, Rapist, Murder-Conspirin', Mass-Murderin' Traitor and Abuser of Power and whether he deserves to live out the remainder of his years as a free man with US pickin' up the tab!! How can we maintain a straight face as we scold these third-world nations for their "human rights abuses" when America doesn't have the GUTS to hold anybody accountable for Waco and the Slaughter of Kosovar Serbs?! Dubyuh's gotta unLeash Justice (aka John Ashcroft) and Take to the Offensive vis a vis the ClintonCrimes and the Increasingly-Omnipotent Federal Leviathan!!

'Tis the Right's Destiny...MUD

4 posted on 12/08/2002 5:26:32 PM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks for the ping B4Ranch, Bttt
5 posted on 12/08/2002 6:10:13 PM PST by firewalk
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks for the ping. And thanks for the jokes earlier! I am still LMAO!!!!! :)
6 posted on 12/08/2002 6:32:44 PM PST by MistyCA
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To: B4Ranch
thanks for the heads-up. I'm pondering (can you smell the smoke?)
7 posted on 12/08/2002 6:34:51 PM PST by demosthenes the elder
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: B4Ranch
We need a big lobby groupe (NRA or larger)with a loud voice so congress will hear us.
9 posted on 12/08/2002 6:55:26 PM PST by dalebert
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To: B4Ranch
We need a big lobby group (NRA or larger)with a loud voice so congress will hear us.
10 posted on 12/08/2002 6:55:35 PM PST by dalebert
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To: dalebert
NO, what's needed is a lobby group that is not already entrenched into the SYSTEM of "Screw 'em, we do what we want!"
11 posted on 12/08/2002 7:11:03 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks for putting me on your ping list, and thank you for posting all of this incredible and factual information! I have "bitched" constantly, about these same issues... I think I have sparked some responses lately, and others are questioning it too!!! Best wishes, and thanks again.
Terri
12 posted on 12/08/2002 7:53:43 PM PST by Terridan
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To: B4Ranch
I still think supporting the border militias that we hear about is a good step as well.
13 posted on 12/08/2002 7:57:53 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
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To: B4Ranch
Does any know of a Sheriff who is unsatisfied with the Illegal alien situation in his/her County. I'm looking for someone, preferably in a Western State who is open to new ideas. Someone who will speak with common folks like myself and keep an open mind to a new radical, non-violent program. Someone who has never had a budget large enough to do what he needed to do. Someone with enough self worth to tolerate being ostracized in the press.
14 posted on 12/08/2002 9:14:19 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
The border militia is getting a lot of press and awakening the nation to the pitiful response of the endangerment that is bearing upon us. The politicians hate being held accountable for their inaction and imcompetence.
15 posted on 12/08/2002 9:17:54 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
These are some GREAT ideas. There is a group working hard in the communist county of Santa Cruz, California to bring some freedoms and Americanism back. I am going to take your ideas to our next meeting.....

16 posted on 12/08/2002 9:39:09 PM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: B4Ranch
None of these programs came solely from the Democrats, nor were they solely supported by Democrats? More and more Republicans are walking to the left of center when it comes to these "undocumented migrants".

This is why I believe any REAL change in our immigration policies is going to come from 3rd parties. It certainly won't happen in the Republicrat Party. That party was married with K-Street money many years ago.

The bums currently in power have to be removed from power before anything constructive can be done. What that will take I have no idea. But something will come along. I don't think America is going to go quietly into the night.

17 posted on 12/08/2002 10:32:20 PM PST by WRhine
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To: B4Ranch
I am not nearly as worried about this topic as many posting here, and I have some different viewpoints on immigration. However, I will state that Illegal Immigration is not something I favor, so here are my responses to the above ideas, and a few options to them:

1. An immediate moratorium on immigration waivers and new applications in the pipeline until major changes are made and the system re-vamped. (Intelligent)

Not going to happen.

2. Dismantle the welfare state, place restrictions on requirements to the Emergency Room srevices [sic] at our hospitals. (Necessary)

On first point, a hearty yes. On second point -- does that mean non-citizens would not get ER service? I trust it doesn't, because that would be, well, rather inhuman.

3. Cut off welfae [sic] payments to immigrants who haven't worked a ceartin [sic] amount of quaters [sic] and paid into the tax system. (Clever variation)

To legal immigrants? Hmm... perhaps. I can see both sides of this coin, and I agree, it is a clever idea, as it provides an incentive to work.

4. Pass law that landlords must check for documents before renting or selling , most now check credit, employment, etc. (Thoughtful)

No thanks. A.) There are plenty of shady landlords who'd evade the requirement. B.) There are too many landlords, who will check them to make sure they are enforcing this? C.) I don't like turning landlords into unpaid civil servants, (or paid ones either, for that matter.)

5. Implement substantial fines (and revocation of tax incentives, if applicable) for employers who don't take reasonable steps to ensure they are hiring citizens. (Current unenforced law)

I could jump on board this one.

6. Place a bounty on each illegal (identified, turned in, and captured, not a " wanted dead or alive") (I like it)

Um.... no thanks. Just what we need, bounty hunters poking through the latin quarter of every town? Ick, no thanks. We don't need scummy people "enforcing" our laws to their own profit. While not everyone who did this would be scummy, face it, it appeals to desperate people who want to make quick money. They won't work to find illegals the hard way, they'll just try to find the easiest mark to nail.

Alternate: Bounty on employers who hire illegals. More likely to attract harder working individuals, including legit bounty hunters and PIs, former police officers, and etc.... More effective and efficient. After all 90% of illegals are here for one of two reasons -- to work, or to mooch. So you find them at the trough or the workplace.

7. Implement substantial fines (and revocation of tax incentives, if applicable) for employers who don't take reasonable steps to ensure they are hiring citizens. (I love it)

This is the same as #5. This is the same as #5.

Sorry couldn't help myself.

8. March on Washington. (Can be expensive for anyone who doesn't live in the area.)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. This is what liberals and whackos do. Isn't working for them, isn't going to work for us. No thanks.

9. Run for a state senate seat or state assembly seat. Can be done rather easily. yes, winning will take a lot of work but not a whole lot of money

Hear that sound? That's me laughing. It's a lot harder than it seems. You know why you need pro politicians like we have now? Because when normal people end up up there they end up getting screwed in the first 5 minutes. Politics is a serious business. The odds of a neophyte getting elected on a one issue platform like immigration are about 900 to 1.

10. Change the constitution so that kids born to illegal are not automatically citizens. (Good Luck)

Nope, not gonna happen, and I don't really want it to, but that is just me I guess.

11. In the federal election to be held on the first Tuesday of February, 2005, no person shall be allowed to vote unless they have proved their U.S. citizenship by providing an American passport, birth certificate, or naturalization papers to the registrar. (Good idea)

I agree. Immigrants, illegal or otherwise, should not be able to vote. However, you had better expand that US Citizenship proof to something more than that list. My Grandfather was born in the 1920s, and he had none of those documents. He was born in OK, where birth registry was not required until the later 1930s.

One important thing: Fact is, Illegals perform many necessary functions within the economy, such as agricultural work. And there are too many to ever deport. Some way of legalizing and documenting those who are essential to the economy, and who are neither welfare mooches or criminals -- other than entry and presence, I mean killers & theives here -- is going to be required. There needs to be a functioning guest worker program for agriculture, because I can tell you this, you will never get the "naturalized" populace back in the fields again. Amnesty may not be the best route, I agree. But I haven't heard anyone else bring up a better idea for what to do about the illegal populations who are not otherwise a burden, except to "deport them", which is the most unworkable of ideas....

Remember the Laffer Curve? It's a basic tennent of conservative tax policy. If taxes are too high, compliance is almost 10%, because people evade it. If Taxes are low enough, revenue jumps because compliance approaches 90%+, since it is too much work to bother cheating.

Apply this to illegal immigration. If a system of immigration and a system for guest workers is easy enough to use, (rather than being punitive,) then people will not run around it, because there will be no incentive.

Another idea I don't see here: no driver's liscences for immigrants who cannot prove legal status.

The remainder of your points, I find a number of faults with, on various fronts. Making a populist move that swamps police chiefs and city councils and such will accomplish nothing, except to raise enough ruckus to make the local news program as being "the Immigration hotheads who showed up at City Hall today. And for tomorrows story, the Lesbian Rights Acitivist march on City Hall...." Marches on city halls are a waste of good time.

The key is employers, and state legislatures. No jobs with legal entry = no more illegal entry problem. Note that this does not mean no immigrants working the 7-11 or the strawberry fields; rather, it means, no illegal immigrants working in those places.

18 posted on 12/08/2002 11:26:09 PM PST by abcraghead
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To: B4Ranch
BTTT!!!!!!
19 posted on 12/09/2002 4:58:53 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks for the ping! BTTT.

Just to let you know, in NYC, no city employee is allowed to report and illegal alien to the INS.
20 posted on 12/09/2002 6:30:45 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I agree re: border crossing security.

Not sure that will ever materialize. We're bailing out the boat without plugging the gaping hole in the hull.
21 posted on 12/09/2002 6:52:20 AM PST by Terriergal
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To: B4Ranch
oops meant to reply to you above!
22 posted on 12/09/2002 6:52:37 AM PST by Terriergal
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To: abcraghead
I apologize for not writing a more explicit composition. Points one through eleven are to the regular readers of FR immigration issues, "well known history".

The purpose of raising these issues amongst the local council members is to polarize the dissent and gain media attention. I am aware that without employment for illegal aliens we would not have an immigration problem. If we cannot induce our politicians to remove the golden cookie programs then we must shame businesses that employ these lawbreakers. If we can compel our law enforcement agencies into enforcing our laws this will, of course, aid in our mission.

I certainly do appreciate your views on this subject.

23 posted on 12/09/2002 6:57:18 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: jjm2111
Are they forbidden from notifying citizen groups?
24 posted on 12/09/2002 6:58:51 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: WRhine
I agree with you that our efforts are best applied to 3rd Parties.
25 posted on 12/09/2002 7:02:02 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Not to the best of my knowledge, but if the group notifies the INS, they might get in trouble. It's not just city policy it's statutory.
26 posted on 12/09/2002 7:02:57 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
I would believe that the statute is illegal because illegal aliens are lawbreakers. Notifying LEO's of criminals is not illegal.
27 posted on 12/09/2002 7:30:56 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Ahh Mr. Nevada, the Northeast doesn't need logic.
28 posted on 12/09/2002 8:02:19 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: B4Ranch
I apologize for not writing a more explicit composition. Points one through eleven are to the regular readers of FR immigration issues, "well known history".

Just to clarify, I used the [sic] stuff to differentiate between the spelling errors in the qoutes and the spelling errors that are mine, (since I have a tendency to type too fast and hit reply too quickly.)

The purpose of raising these issues amongst the local council members is to polarize the dissent and gain media attention. I am aware that without employment for illegal aliens we would not have an immigration problem. If we cannot induce our politicians to remove the golden cookie programs then we must shame businesses that employ these lawbreakers.

How about something a little better targeted? Focus on the citizens we have now who are out of work, point out the displacement effect of cheap illegal labor. "Support American Workers" or some such type of campaign...? If you have to go to city hall or wherever to gain media attention, bringing that message is going to be a more effective "spin".

Where your method of "angry mob at City Hall complaining of illegal immigrants" will work is where it's more a crime issue, such as urban areas.

29 posted on 12/09/2002 11:08:25 AM PST by abcraghead
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To: abcraghead
The problems vary throughout the different cities and counties. Some communities have higher than normal crime rates and/or unemployment rates. In other communities the increase in taxes for a new school that will primarily benefit the invading illegal alien youngsters may be the "Hot" issue. Others could have a medical care problem. H1-B Visa workers are the problem in many technological orientated communities.

People should bring up LOCAL ISSUES, not national issues.

30 posted on 12/09/2002 11:17:13 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
BTTT
31 posted on 12/09/2002 1:06:55 PM PST by mafree
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To: B4Ranch
OK. Where do "we" join this lobby group?
32 posted on 12/09/2002 5:18:56 PM PST by dalebert
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To: B4Ranch
I think a lobby group to tighen the borders and stop illegals would appeal to a lot of nra and union people. Maybe we could get a list of the members of these groups
33 posted on 12/09/2002 5:23:27 PM PST by dalebert
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To: dalebert
I keep looking for one that isn't an NGO of the UN.
34 posted on 12/09/2002 5:59:55 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: WRhine
"I don't think America is going to go quietly into the night."

HA!
Would it help [any] if she were to go noisily?

...when ya go, ya go.

35 posted on 12/09/2002 9:32:17 PM PST by Landru
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To: Landru; WRhine
The Washington Times
www.washtimes.com

Arizona militia set to patrol border for illegal aliens

Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES Published 12/9/2002

     A former kindergarten teacher who has organized a 600-strong militia in Arizona will station 50 armed militia members on public land this weekend to "protect their country" against an invasion of illegal aliens, warning federal authorities — including President Bush — not to interfere.
     "I dare the president of the United States to arrest Americans who are protecting their own country," said Chris Simcox, the teacher-turned-newspaper owner who has formed the Tombstone, Ariz., Militia. "We will no longer tolerate the ineptness of the government in dealing with these criminals and drug dealers.
     "It is a monumental disgrace that our government is letting the American people down, turning us into the expendable casualties of the war on terrorism," he said.
     Mr. Simcox, owner of the Tombstone Tumbleweed, said the armed militia members would patrol public land to detain illegal aliens every weekend until Mr. Bush puts U.S. troops on the border to stop the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants coming into the state each year and the resulting vandalism of public and private land.
     Federal and state lawmakers have targeted Mr. Simcox for hearings to determine if he has violated any laws in forming the armed militia organization and posting its members on private land to stop illegal aliens, smugglers and drug dealers.
     The hearings are being sought by Rep.-elect Raul Grijalva, Arizona Democrat; Gov.-elect Janet Napolitano; current Arizona Gov. Jane Hull; and state Rep. Robert Cannell, Yuma Democrat, and are expected to focus on the Tombstone Militia and other civilian militia groups and citizen patrols that have sprung up along Arizona's border with Mexico.
     Many of the militia and patrol members have expressed anger and frustration over the government's inability to stop the hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens coming into Arizona each year from Mexico.
     Mr. Grijalva, who takes office in January, said he also intends to ask Attorney General John Ashcroft to investigate the Arizona militias and patrols, saying he feared the "potential for violence" along the border involving the civilian organizations.
     "Armed civilian groups on the border contribute to an already fragile situation, and their rhetoric is very dangerous to the overall security of the region," Mr. Grijalva said. "We have a failed border policy, but the intrusion of armed militias certainly adds to the potential for violence.
     "It's time Congress became involved and conduct hearings on a full range of critical border issues, including the militias, immigration reform and overall border policy," he said. "With the issue of vigilantism, the potential for that becoming something very ugly certainly exists."
     The Arizona Legislature is expected to take up the matter when it returns for business in January, and the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights also has asked the Justice Department to investigate suspected "vigilante" activities in Arizona.
     Arizona is home to more than a dozen known militia organizations.
     About a third of the more than 1 million illegal aliens expected to be arrested this year by U.S. Border Patrol agents will be apprehended in southern Arizona, where they have migrated because of increased border enforcement in California and Texas.
     The influx of illegal aliens has resulted not only in a glut of vandalism in Arizona, but to a rise in crime along the state's border with Mexico, authorities said.
     Mr. Simcox challenged federal and state officials to "uphold the oath of office they took to protect America" from foreign enemies. He also said militia members who take part in the weekend patrol will not wear uniforms or camouflage, but will be armed with handguns — no rifles — to protect themselves.
     "I've been out on the border for 10 months, and I can tell you that we have to be armed," he said, noting that citizen militias are necessary and legal.
     "I am not afraid to carry this on to state lands that belong to every citizen. It's our land," he said. "I'm not afraid to step on that land and do the same thing, and I challenge my government to come and arrest me. We are not crazies, we're concerned citizens we are responsible people."
     The first group of 50 was inducted and began a course of training on Saturday, which included a qualification that each seek and be issued a state concealed-weapons permit. Mr. Simcox told Tucson reporters last week the requirement would allow the militia to use the government to screen its volunteers, who would have to pass a felony background investigation and an FBI check.

Copyright © 2002 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.

Return to the article

36 posted on 12/10/2002 6:14:04 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: hedgetrimmer
Winston Churchill observed, "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

I'm glad to see you are waiting around to see if someone else is going to fight for you.

37 posted on 12/10/2002 6:36:15 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Brother ... keep it up. You are doing yoeman's work here IMHO.

ARM THE PEOPLE

38 posted on 12/10/2002 7:03:45 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: B4Ranch; ALOHA RONNIE
"'I dare the president of the United States to arrest Americans who are protecting their own country,' said Chris Simcox, the teacher-turned-newspaper owner who has formed the Tombstone, Ariz., Militia. 'We will no longer tolerate the ineptness of the government in dealing with these criminals and drug dealers. It is a monumental disgrace that our government is letting the American people down, turning us into the expendable casualties of the war on terrorism,' he said.'"

The guy's got a pair of stones, is all I can say.
I sincerely fear for this solid citizen's future.
I truly do.

"Federal and state lawmakers have targeted Mr. Simcox for hearings to determine if he has violated any laws in forming the armed militia organization and posting its members on private land to stop illegal aliens, smugglers and drug dealers."

~& that's why I fear for the guy, too.
Don't address the PROBLEM; oh no-no-no...go after THE ONLY PERSON DOING SOMETHING!
Yes, the "Enemy most certainly is within," alright.
Make absolutely no mistake about that.

"The hearings are being sought by Rep.-elect Raul Grijalva, Arizona Democrat; Gov.-elect Janet Napolitano; current Arizona Gov. Jane Hull; and state Rep. Robert Cannell, Yuma Democrat, and are expected to focus on the Tombstone Militia and other civilian militia groups and citizen patrols that have sprung up along Arizona's border with Mexico."

There ya have it; they've clearly stated their intentions.
This poor guy's toast.

"Mr. Simcox challenged federal and state officials to 'uphold the oath of office they took to protect America" from foreign enemies.'"

So where have we all heard that before, huh?
More *legacy*?

Oath?
What oath?
We don't need no stinkin' oath!
In yo' face!
~eh?

...wheels are *off*, children; all the way off.

39 posted on 12/10/2002 7:12:36 AM PST by Landru
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To: B4Ranch
This item needs further discussion and action groups need to use this forum as a initiation point. I.e. how will local action groups get off the ground? Use Free Republic as a way to direct people to your local action group website etc. Don't propose illegal activity, but we should investigate whether certain actions are legal or have a legal basis. The ongoing dialogue should be posted here so that everyone can benefit.
40 posted on 12/10/2002 7:22:59 AM PST by Ol'Grey Head
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To: Landru
I agree. But these folks are serious and will go the distance. The wheels may be off ... but they are going to try and do their part to either keep whats left on, or put them back on there on that part of the border.

Very couragous individuals. I hope they have the support of some of their local officials (like Sheriff, County Commissioners and at least one Judge). That made a HUGE difference at Jarbidge, NV.

We didn't have it at Klamath and so it as a lot more dicey. But enough people flocked to that cause and raised enough clamor that the Federal government backed off and finally did the right thing. Perhaps the same will occur there ... but only if enough of us become involved and raise the clamor IMHO.

41 posted on 12/10/2002 7:27:11 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: B4Ranch
I have something to share with you re illegal aliens working/employers requiring proper employee documentation:

This concerns a lawsuit in Colorado. I am not a lawyer, but I worked on this case for a lawyer (my ex boss). It is public record; however, I will not disclose names here.

An American citizen had a motor vehicle accident which resulted in the death of the passenger in another vehicle. The passenger had two children, who filed a lawsuit, on behalf of the estate of the deceased. During litigation, we were presented with economic damages: monies the decedent would have made had she lived and, therefore, from which the children would have otherwise benefitted. The calculation of economic loss, had this woman kept working during her expected lifetime, according to the estate’s attorneys, was in the neighborhood of $250,000. This amount, of course, presumed that she would continue working in the same or similar type of employment within the United States. In addition to the projected economic loss, there was another demand of approximately $250,000 for pain and suffering of the children.

Long story short: this woman was an illegal alien. The Social Security number her employer claimed to be the decedent’s was not, in fact, the decedent’s Social Security number. We found this out by calling the Social Security Administration. They would not say whose name was assigned to that number, but said the name we gave her WAS NOT correct. There were other things that would have brought up to the question of her legal status: she held no bank account, filed no tax returns, paid no taxes (according to the employer), was paid in cash, owned no property. The father of the children lives in Mexico, and is a Mexican citizen.....there's more, but I'll just leave it at this.

My boss made demands of the children’s/estate’s attorney for documentation that the decedent was legally allowed to be living and working in the United States; these demands were made before, during, and after trial; during appeal; and again after we won appeal. They refused. No supporting documents were ever provided. On the witness stand, the Judge said the employer did not have to produce ANY documentation that the employee was legally allowed to work in the U.S., had a green card, or anything else to support the employer’s claims that she “saw” the proper employment documentation that would have allowed her to hire the woman.

The economic projections the plaintiffs’ attorney claimed his clients were due were solely based on legal employment within the United States of America, for the duration of the illegal alien’s lifetime. Not taken into account were these facts:

1. She had no documentation to legally work in the U.S.
2. She had no security to continue working, illegally or otherwise, in the U.S., as she could have, conceivably, been deported at any time throughout her “working years.”

So, what good does it do to pass laws requiring employers to see documents proving eligibility for work if those same employers are later aided/rewarded by judges who allow employers to lie under oath by not forcing them to produce any documentation that they were legally allowed to hire an employee?

The judge, in effect, said “as long as it pertains to the question of ‘legal employment status,’ the employer can simply claim he/she “saw” the necessary ‘proof of employment documentation’ on the witness stand; it will be accepted as fact without any proof.”

Obviously, all our laws, as pertains to employment requirements requiring documentation proving eligibility to work is for naught if we have judges who continue to allow fraud to occur in a courtroom.

42 posted on 12/10/2002 8:13:20 AM PST by nicmarlo
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To: Jeff Head
"But these folks are serious and will go the distance."

Those folks -- starting with this organizer -- are going to get thrown in stir.
Once incarcerated in *their* penal nuthouses do you realize what'll happen to 'em?
I needn't tell you what the predominant ethnic background of an overwhelming majority of inmates presently are in those jails, either.

What's almost as bad is how the decent, honest & concerned citizen (down there, anyway) cannot rely on instruments [like], "Jury Nulification" anymore either, in the event they're forced to stand trial?
Regardless how trumped-up the charges may be; &, they will be.

Remember who'll be sitting on those juries in majority numbers, now.
The *enemy* is firmly entrenched -- within -- & in so many ways I cannot count the ways.

For chrissakes just let ONE of these militia members HAVE TO defend themselves -- & it's gonna happen, alright -- and in the process shoot one of these illegals.
The trial sheisters & Liberal-Socialist America-hating pols will drop outa the saguaros by the score.
All salivating at the prospect of sueing & *then* snuffing *all* of these people into oblivion.
(~& again keep in your mind who it is sitting on most of the juries in that part of the country.)

"The wheels may be off...but they are going to try and do their part to either keep whats left on, or put them back on there on that part of the border."

See?
This is "the" A#1 point where you & I have always met at loggerheads, Jeff Head.
I simply cannot see the sense in people marching -- knowingly -- into a hail of *fire*.
You -- appear -- to find some kind of *honor* in doing so?
You're a genuine anachronism, Jeff Head.

While I've always admired your steadfast beliefs & principles?
I just think there's got to be another, better way.
In the very least, I'd have to say it's about time we realize when the opposition forces begin, "talking" about something -- anything -- socially?
They intend to do whateverinthehell they're talking about, soon.
And ONLY BECAUSE they've already formed an ironclad strategy from A to Z thought-out well in advance of their ever saying a word as well as all of 'em -- ie their media, pols, sycophants, quislings & plants -- being on the same page.

Once these guys start to move, they've consistantly left our side, "reacting" continually on the defensive.
Then, we're hopelessly tied-up, mucked-down fielding their well prepared PR implemented accusations, smears, & assualts while their main thrust blows right by.
Their MO is gettin' really old.

Now if we have to fight -- & that'd always be the last resort -- I happen to believe the way that's done is the exact way ol' Gen GPatton once said, "Make the other poor SOB die for HIS country!" [read: cause]
Means once something starts, it's all the way or nothing a'tall.
The Liberal-Socialists additionally appear to have our (~& all others of our cut) number because they're extremely skilled in never pushing too far; not, until for the cause, it's too late.

"Very couragous individuals."

Yup; & a dying breed of American, to be sure.
Over just the past ten years the Liberal-Socialists have methodically picked-off those with this kind of spirit one by one; &, have done so in a variety of different ways: physcially *&* psycologically.
(Frankly, I'm stunned you've lasted this long, to be perfectly honest.)

"I hope they have the support of some of their local officials (like Sheriff, County Commissioners and at least one Judge). That made a HUGE difference at Jarbidge, NV."

Jarbridge was NOT the same kind of thing as this illegal immigrant issue!
Jarbridge couldn't possibly be spun into a, "racial" or "racist" matter by the Liberal-Socialists.
Jarbridge was one of the citizen v.s. the feds, as I recall. Right?

Just you watch what happens in this instance; just watch.
When the fecal-matter hits the impeler -- & it's gonna as sure as God made li'l green apples -- just watch these pols -- from bottom to top -- perform a state-of-the-art CYA.
These people are heading directly under the proverbial bus.

"We didn't have it at Klamath and so it as a lot more dicey. But enough people flocked to that cause and raised enough clamor that the Federal government backed off and finally did the right thing. Perhaps the same will occur there..."

I always maintained the correct *approach* at Klamath could've drawn the feds to the bargaining table where upon a dialog could be opened & everyone's needs be met.
~& no that's not some half-assed "conflict resolution" bullshit, either.
It's common country horse sense.

...but only if enough of us become involved and raise the clamor IMHO."

That'll remain to be seen; as, I *think* this POTUS has other ideas concerning the situation?
And I dare-say you've the same notion I have what the man's *fix* might just be, too.

...& we won't be happy about it, either.

43 posted on 12/10/2002 8:30:26 AM PST by Landru
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To: nicmarlo
What you described is another example that we no longer have a "justice system of laws", now it is a "legal system" where judges decide for themselves when a law was broken. If they don't agree with the law, then it is ignored in their courtroom.
44 posted on 12/10/2002 8:30:37 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
we no longer have a "justice system of laws", now it is a "legal system" where judges decide for themselves when a law was broken. If they don't agree with the law, then it is ignored in their courtroom.

We've been seeing this time and time again: Florida Supremes, NJ Supremes (re Toricelli replacement), judges extending voting poll hours (to the benefit of Rats), etc., etc., etc. It's pathetic. But everyone votes these judges back in .... what can you do when they're are not held accountable? They think they're gods.

45 posted on 12/10/2002 8:42:16 AM PST by nicmarlo
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To: Landru; Jeff Head; dalebert; mafree
What's almost as bad is how the decent, honest & concerned citizen (down there, anyway) cannot rely on instruments [like], "Jury Nulification" anymore either, in the event they're forced to stand trial? Regardless how trumped-up the charges may be; &, they will be.

I'm not sure, but I don't think a member of the Bar is allowed to promote "Jury Nulification". If an attorney ever did that he would have a difficult time trying and winning the most simple case in that judges courtroom.

46 posted on 12/10/2002 8:43:03 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: Jeff Head
the Federal government backed off and finally did the right thing.

Jeff, I think the Feds are promoting NWO and are in full support of the illegal immigration invasion. Where do you get the hope that they will "do the right thing"?

47 posted on 12/10/2002 8:46:39 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: nicmarlo; Jeff Head; Spiff
The time had come for the citizens of America to take charge of its destiny. Egregious violations of the public trust by federal agencies are reaching a crisis point. Federal agencies believe they are accountable to noboby except the budget commisioners.
48 posted on 12/10/2002 8:55:30 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
"I'm not sure, but I don't think a member of the Bar is allowed to promote 'Jury Nulification'."

So who's talking about getting that (~or any other) kind of counsel from a sheister anyway, B4?

If our side cannot figure out what in the hell's going down *&* what needs to be done to straighten out the mess?
Then we're in even deeper kimcheee, than even I thought.

You sound as though you missed the point; or, I didn't make myself clear, again.

Be that as it may make no mistake the Liberal-Socialists & their activist *judges* have figured it all out, pretty well.

...even if our side continues to *struggle*.

49 posted on 12/10/2002 8:58:52 AM PST by Landru
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To: B4Ranch; Jeff Head; Spiff
Egregious violations of the public trust by federal agencies are reaching a crisis point.

Did you watch the Factor last night? Incredible story about detectives hired to go into Los Alamos, discovery theft (in huge amounts). They were fired by University of "C," which runs Los Alamos. These two men found out about too much theft and were reporting incidences to the FBI. All this money came from, you guessed it, the Federal Government, which, of course, coms from US.

50 posted on 12/10/2002 9:09:35 AM PST by nicmarlo
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