Calling All Christians: Rebellion brings Civil War 2, and invasion by China/Russia/etc. (VANITY)

Why would China and Russia want to go through the huge expense and massive naval build up it would take for a land invasion on U.S. soil? Still yet in doing so using a nuke makes no sense whatsoever. Nuking means they don't use the land either. It takes ships lots and lots of ships and planes to move troops.

The war of wars is to take place in Israel and ships will not be needed to move armies there by her enemies. Look at a map and you'll see. The coming treaties will likely be peace treaties with trade a priority. One will proclaim world trade with world peace and world government to oversee it all. A one world monetary system. For pacifying the M.E. nations this will include a treaty with Israel to bring peace likely in exchange for bad concessions {a Palestine homeland etc}. It will include a peace solution. That is the deception.

Once control is gained hell on earth is unleashed to plunder. Where will the U.S. be in all this? Maybe too weak to help due to being cut off from any goods including fuel. Thus we need to protest and get policies that weaken us as a nation changed both morally and fisical including our domestic production capabilities to meet all our own needs not relying on China.

More likely attack would be an economical one with an alliance formed with all oil producing nations. Add to that China simply cutting off our supplies by cutting off exports to the USA. That is a far more likely reality. Not one shot fired and the nation brought to it's knees.

The foreign nations do not attack us because We The People are armed thus making us a major army far beyond our official government funded military.

Several other points. If out forefather who were subjects to the crown had not taken a very huge leap of faith and formed this nation to start with but rather let the king continue to run roughshod this nation would not have been born. Some were righteous or believers and some were not.

I won't deny that our nations moral decline and fall from GOD's protection has possibly already taken place as GOD alone judges all nations. At some point complete anarchy make breakout in the nation. Then it wise to be prepared to act accordingly. We can pray for changed hearts, we can try to change hearts, we also have duty to GOD family and nation. Oh and quite a few have taken oath to protect and defend this nation and her Constitution.

Unrighteous leaders will demand you do unrighteous things. We are not bound in that respect to obey such demands made by them. Nor all we forbidden to resist by any means possible.

It may happen this way or it may not. I believe this to be far more likely than a land invasion from China at least in the next few decades.

Even beyond that judgments come in many forms including natural calamity. Our nation has several huge potentials for that as well from Yellowstone to Madrid Fault System which if another 1811-1812 strings of events happened it would close The Mississippi river and bring huge disasters in food among other things.

One thing I do know and I rely on. GOD is in control. He holds our future. Believers throughout history have been called to arms to defend homeland and ensure the safety of others. For any situation including the Return of Christ we should be ready.

Wait, say my daughter is killed by a murderer. Should I not grieve? Would this not be a challenge for me to obey Jesus’ calls to forgive?

There is no contradiction. One crime can hurt several people. You can forgive only the portion of the crime that falls onto you. For example, your daughter is injured by a criminal. You are free to forgive the criminal your mental pain and suffering. Your daughter is free to demand the criminal put on trial, convicted, and given a chair.

The decision depends on the degree of damage. If a child was playing with a ball and broke a window in your house, it would be unfair to call police and have the child arrested. If a teenager was trying to shoot his drug dealer but accidentally hit and wounded you, it will be harder for you to forgive. An even worse situation can occur if someone wants to hurt you by hurting innocents (Chris Dorner did that just a month ago.)

As a Christian you are welcome to forgive their actions. But as a citizen, you are required to maintain peace within the society. This is the domain of Caesar. As Jesus said on one occasion, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Evaluation of someone's sins is God's part. Keeping people alive is Caesar's part. Do not mix the two.

I asked: What would a true Christian, per your definition, do?

You answered by choosing options that are not present in my scenario. In other words, your actor would freeze; perhaps he would cry, or maybe he'd curl up under a bush until the police shows up to collect the bodies and discovers that this one is alive and well, aside from soiled clothes. This is not what a true Christian would do.

My example is not even contrived, unfortunately. That very scenario played out in Norway and at Sandy Hook just recently. This is a very real scenario. A true Christian would sell his cloak and buy a sword, and he would have it with him everywhere, so that when the evil strikes (it will!) the Christian is there, in its path, to stop it. If you have to draw that sword, will that hurt your soul? Yes, it will. But letting innocents be killed will hurt it even more. No man is ideal; if you strive to be perfect, lock yourself up in a monastery, or become a hermit. You will score fewer black marks there; but at the same time you will score fewer white marks as well - life in a remote cave doesn't give you too many opportunities to help others. As an instrument of God, you would be kept sharp and well polished ... and never put to use. Why would God want to have such an instrument?

This is not to disparage your suggestion to minister to criminals and to pray for them. This is a good preventive measure. However this measure is insufficient when you are facing a drug-crazed psycho. He is not sentient anymore - drugs have burned all the remnants of his mind out of his head. People on bath salts engage in cannibalism, they eat their victims alive. You cannot reason with them, and you are not Jesus to help them with a handy herd of swine. You must act according to your abilities.

On the subject of abilities:

I am stepping up to the plate by working to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and using my God given authority to come against evil in this country, and to pray for sinners to get saved, and for Christians to stop backsliding.

That is appreciated. You do not see yourself as a Soldier. You know better than anyone what you can and cannot do, and that is just fine.

However what works for you personally may not be a good fit for others. You see, the society is not made uniform. Even ants have specialized insects for this or that work. Human society also has specialization within - it has cobblers, bakers, metalworkers, doctors, soldiers and priests, among other. All these trades are necessary, and people fall into them according to their abilities and inclination. You are clearly leaning toward priesthood. That is fine. However someone else has to be a soldier, a guard, a teacher, a hunter, a sailor. It would be incorrect to preach to them that their occupations are wrong and they have to change. A soldier cannot give up his arms because when the neighboring King decides to attack your King you will be all dead - it is the soldier's duty to protect you. Similarly, you cannot tell the hunter that killing deer is wrong - your people need to eat. You cannot tell the sailor that by going to the sea he risks his soul. Perhaps - but he has to go because he delivers food and saves thousands of other, innocent people. In other words, I can understand that a priest, facing a killer, resorts to prayer. However the soldier, who stands by the priest, will attack the killer and arrest him. Both models of behavior have place in the society; but none of them, taken alone, can be said to be the only one that is right.

Hello cva66snipe -

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

YOU SAID: Why would China and Russia want to go through the huge expense and massive naval build up it would take for a land invasion on U.S. soil? Still yet in doing so using a nuke makes no sense whatsoever. Nuking means they don’t use the land either. It takes ships lots and lots of ships and planes to move troops.

1) Nuking us from their subs means eliminating our nuclear stockpiles and our Army/Navy/Air Force bases, precluding us from retaliating with our own nukes, or defending ourselves. From what I gather, these silos are in the heartland of the USA, not in the population centers. MCAS Miramar is in San Diego, there are other Naval bases in Seattle, etc ...

2) According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout#Short_term “Fallout radiation decays exponentially relatively quickly with time. Most areas become fairly safe for travel and decontamination after three to five weeks.”

So, once we were nuked and EMPd into being defenseless, and then surrendering, they could take their sweet time in bringing troops here to occupy, rape, pillage, kill, etc.

3) Russia is currently the #1 oil exporting nation. They have cash, as does China. Moving troops here to occupy and rape the land of all it’s oil and gold would be an investment once we were subdued.

>The war of wars is to take place in Israel and ships will
>not be needed to move armies there by her enemies.

What nation is Babylon of Revelation 18? I realize it says “city” or “polis” in the Greek, but could it not be the USA itself? Here’s one source I just dug up: http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/america-mystery-babylon-great.htm

Here’s one I’ve known about for while: http://www.handofhelp.com/vision_2.php

YOU SAID: Thus we need to protest and get policies that weaken us as a nation changed both morally and fisical including our domestic production capabilities to meet all our own needs not relying on China.

One of the many reasons I am calling for a Holy Restoration of Christian living, is because of this verse:

PROVERBS 14:34
34 ¶ Righteousness exalts a nation: but sin [is] a reproach to any people.

We ain’t righteous, as I already pointed out at the top of this thread in my original post. So we’re dragged down with debt, poverty, and soft tyranny.

I don’t blame President Obama and the Democrats. They are so obviously unsaved heathen who think God is make believe.

They think God is make believe, because we Christians are not Holy, nor do we collectively trust God to do his part of 2 Chronicles 7:14 if we do ours:

II CHRONICLES 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

YOU SAID: The foreign nations do not attack us because We The People are armed thus making us a major army far beyond our official government funded military.

To occupy a nation, one needs to only control parts of it, not every square mile. China has the personnel to pick the USA clean like ants on a dead squirrel.

YOU SAID: Several other points. If out forefather who were subjects to the crown had not taken a very huge leap of faith and formed this nation to start with but rather let the king continue to run roughshod this nation would not have been born. Some were righteous or believers and some were not.

We’d be like Canada, worst case scenario. The UK was great because it WAS Christian. We were great because we were also a Christian nation. Here’s the verse:

What joy for the nation whose God is the LORD, whose people he has chosen as his inheritance.
http://bible.cc/psalms/33-12.htm

Liberty of a nation is the product of Godliness, not guns and rebellion. Of all the quotes on this page http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/Q-01-FAMOUS-QUOTES.html the following is my favorite.

“Tell your prince that this Book (the BIBLE) is the secret of England’s greatness”
Queen victoria

YOU SAID: Unrighteous leaders will demand you do unrighteous things.

True, but we are to pray for them, because God can change their hearts, or save them.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-4

Thanks for your time.

==
Best Regards,
Freeper ROTB
http://holyrestoration.weebly.com
**Please** let me know if I can add you to the “Holy Restoration” ping list.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. - James 1:22

YOU SAID: I asked: What would a true Christian, per your definition, do? You answered by choosing options that are not present in my scenario.

True. Because you only presented options to me that would either force me to be a hypocrite, or a coward.

Interceding prayer is neither. It’s the greatest outlet of power on earth. It stops such situations at the root.

Our flesh, coupled with demonic activity is the source of much evil in this world.

YOU SAID: In other words, your actor would freeze; perhaps he would cry, or maybe he’d curl up under a bush until the police shows up to collect the bodies and discovers that this one is alive and well, aside from soiled clothes. This is not what a true Christian would do ... A true Christian would sell his cloak and buy a sword ...

Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.

http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/faq.html#Q1

YOU SAID: My example is not even contrived, unfortunately. That very scenario played out in Norway and at Sandy Hook just recently. This is a very real scenario.

A true Christian, who is consecrated to the LORD and used of God for intercession would be protected from being in the area. Furthermore he would be 50 miles from it, binding the forces of Satan so it would not happen. In a Christian nation where people put more importance on prayer and holiness, such things would not happen.

They happen now, here in the USA because our churches are entertainment centered, not holiness centered.

YOU SAID: If you have to draw that sword, will that hurt your soul? Yes, it will. But letting innocents be killed will hurt it even more.

Violating Matthew 26:52 will hurt in light of Luke 6:46 ...

MATTHEW 26:52
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

LUKE 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

YOU SAID: No man is ideal; if you strive to be perfect,

God gave many commands in the Old and New Testaments to be perfect. If he commanded it, it can be done. Please see http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/15_christian_perfection.pdf for some verses.

YOU SAID: lock yourself up in a monastery, or become a hermit. You will score fewer black marks there; but at the same time you will score fewer white marks as well - life in a remote cave doesn’t give you too many opportunities to help others. As an instrument of God, you would be kept sharp and well polished ... and never put to use. Why would God want to have such an instrument?

Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.

JOB 1:8
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and eschews evil?”

What use is such a man today? Miracle healings like Jesus did. See http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/16_aaallenthepricefullversion.pdf for the details in Chapters 3 and 4.

YOU SAID: This is not to disparage your suggestion to minister to criminals and to pray for them. This is a good preventive measure. However this measure is insufficient when you are facing a drug-crazed psycho. He is not sentient anymore - drugs have burned all the remnants of his mind out of his head. People on bath salts engage in cannibalism, they eat their victims alive. You cannot reason with them, and you are not Jesus to help them with a handy herd of swine. You must act according to your abilities.

Admittedly, I am not at this level, but I’m working to get there. Someone has to do it. Maybe me, maybe one of my friends, maybe someone on FR, maybe ... YOU.

YOU SAID: That is appreciated. You do not see yourself as a Soldier. You know better than anyone what you can and cannot do, and that is just fine.

God calls me a soldier who performs warfare in prayer.

You therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
II TIMOTHY 2:3-4

II CORINTHIANS 10:4
4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

I TIMOTHY 1:18
18 ¶ This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

YOU SAID: However someone else has to be a soldier, a guard, a teacher, a hunter, a sailor. It would be incorrect to preach to them that their occupations are wrong and they have to change. A soldier cannot give up his arms because when the neighboring King decides to attack your King you will be all dead - it is the soldier’s duty to protect you.

Even John the Baptist never told the soldiers who asked him to quit. He just told them to live clean and holy.

LUKE 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.

Thank you again for your time, and your patient thoughtful reply. I hope on a scale of 1 to 100, I have budged you at least 1-2 points toward my point of view.

Because you only presented options to me that would either force me to be a hypocrite, or a coward.

True. I chose those options because they are realistic. When you walk in a dark street and see a woman raped by two armed thugs, you'd better be properly equipped and trained to resist the evil. You will do good if you bring those thugs to a church ahead of time and convince them that their way is not the right one. However if you meet them too late then your avenues are somewhat limited.

To make things even more obvious: what would you do if, in a rural village, you see a mountain lion attacking a child? (One, of very formidable size, was caught a year ago in a town that I visit.) Or, perhaps, you walk in a city and see a rabid pitbull attacking a pregnant woman? (That also happened, saw it in the news somewhere.) You cannot convince an animal - especially a deathly sick animal - to change its ways.

You can also note that there are not too many shades of gray between an animal and a thug. Intelligence and social manners are not binary. A creature can have none of them, or all of them, or anywhere in between. Having human genes is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a human.

Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.

[The Scripture sometimes gives different answers to slightly different questions not because it is contradictory but because the situations are not the same. Sometimes we see the difference in the context, in other cases we do not.]

“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,”

Not a contradiction. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts you or kills you. For example, imagine that an armed intruder breaks into your home. To protect your family you grab your trusty revolver. The burglar shoots you. You shoot the burglar. You both die. Your death is the punishment for taking your sword. You knew the deal. You still went ahead. Why? Because you saved others.

In this light it is perfectly clear why one shall not wantonly brandish the sword. It is not consequence-free. This action is reserved only for the most dire circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it. The case of George Zimmerman is a very good illustration of this principle.

“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors

This requires a Christian to be law-abiding. This is not under debate. The problem arises when the laws themselves, or their executors, are wrong. The Bible does not specify how human laws are put in place, and how those governors are assigned. This means it's under the purview of our social order. We are free to elect our kings and our governors, and we are free to make our own laws. We are also free to change them whenever the society finds it necessary. God only specifies the framework within which we are allowed to manage our affairs. For example, it is prohibited to murder public officials just because you don't like their policies. (Hardly anyone proposes that.)

1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”

It is essential to read the entire chapter. It is about Saul rebelling against God:

Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: "I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

As matter of fact, it was Samuel who lawfully rebelled against Saul, the current king - and his rebellion was not simply legal, it was divinely inspired, and it had full support of God. God needed someone to tell Saul that he erred. Your quote, in fact, supports the position that errant rulers shall be made to answer for their mistakes. How exactly that is to be done? It varies. In Samuel's case, a talk was sufficient:

Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God."

Some sinners may be far more stubborn; and once they are on the wrong path they may be hard to convince. You always do what you must, not more and not less.

With regard to the entire quote, now it becomes very clear why rebellion against God is on par with witchcraft - it simply violates the Ten Commandments.

Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.

Job's shoes are pretty large. When someone among us is born to fill them, then perhaps we can revisit this issue. Saints have their own ways; but I am not one, and most people on this Earth aren't saints either. Even to Job this perfection didn't come easy. Here is a summary from Wikipedia:

The Book of Job begins with an introduction to Job's character—he is described as a blessed man who lives righteously. God's praise of Job prompts Satan to challenge Job's integrity and suggesting that Job serves God simply because he protects him. God removes Job's protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Despite his difficult circumstances, he does not curse God, but rather curses the day of his birth. And although he protests his plight and pleads for an explanation, he stops short of accusing God of injustice.

Most people that I know would rather confine themselves to the least comfortable cell in a monastery, or the least comfortable cave in a faraway land, rather than go through this.

I have to go back to work now, no matter that it's almost midnight on the West Coast. I know that nobody is going to do my job for me. (The criterion here is simple: if I can do it then it's up to me to do it.) Thank you for the discussion, and best wishes!

P.S. I do not subscribe to ping lists; instead I just browse the forum occasionally, read, and reply when it is appropriate. I'm actually pretty busy, I have more work to do than I can handle. This work is something that people actually need to do good things with, so I cannot be away from my design environment for long.

The other thread was pulled... don't know why. On the hopeful assumption that it wasn't my fault, here is my 2 cents again....

You wrote: ChIna building up its military, and has ever increasing nukes pointed at us,...Russia is fielding more ICBMs, while internal forces are massing against ours, and our home grown 5th column is alive and well... the USA is being destroyed, right now from the inside... Russia/China/Latin America/Arabs are ganging up on us, to destroy us...Christians are having dreams and visions of coming destruction, including a specific recent dream of our military being targeted.

This judgement has been prophesied for a long time. We’re supposed to experience economic collapse, famine, plague, domestic tyranny, earthquake, nuclear strikes, invasion by a coalition of nations, destruction of our military and our government, and brutal occupation. All ordained by God as a judgement on our national sin.

For the record, I TOTALLY believe it. If America does not suffer a SEVERE national judgement, the God of the Bible can't be real. Bad news either way! And if you think God doesn't judge NATIONS, you've missed the point of the Old Testament....and Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address.

If importing 600,000 slaves was repaid with 600,000 Civil War battle deaths, how many of us must die for 52 million abortions? Sobering math there....

However the prophecies of doom end with hope, or at least a few of them do: After our government falls, American guerillas never give up. With national repentance (and only then do our guns have any use), divine intervention strengthens their hand, breaking the occupation and bringing victory.

Interestingly, Red Dawn (1984) was supposedly based in part on the Youngbrandt prophecies of the 70s, which leads some folks to call this coming conflict, the “Red Dawn War”. However the movie had the Chinese on the wrong side (ours) and did not explore the spiritual aspect at all.

For your consideration ...and I suggest you print it out and save a copy in your survival stash...

STAR SPANGLED BANNER — PROPHECY VERSE
Inspired by the war prophecies of George Washington, Sarah Hoffman, Chuck Youngbrandt et al.
Not to be sung publicly til after the war...

Oh say can you see, by the savage red dawn,
The long-prophesied war, and our land’s devastation?
For God’s judgement is just, yet His mercy lives on,
In the remnant preserved, for restoring the nation.
With our government gone, our guerrillas fought on,
And victory came, when the Lord made them strong.
And the star spangled banner, by God’s grace shall wave,
O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

*****

I apologize if I repeat myself, since there are many I am conversing with on FR.

I SAID: Because you only presented options to me that would either force me to be a hypocrite, or a coward.

IN RESPONSE YOU SAID: True. I chose those options because they are realistic. When you walk in a dark street and see a woman raped by two armed thugs, you’d better be properly equipped and trained to resist the evil. You will do good if you bring those thugs to a church ahead of time and convince them that their way is not the right one. However if you meet them too late then your avenues are somewhat limited.

I don’t convict them of sin. The Holy Spirit does as we pray. Proverbs 21:1 says God turns the hearts of kings, so he can turn the hearts of thugs. John 16:8 says that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin righteousness & judegment. The question is, can a “neighborhood watch” with a 9mm pistol be in all places? Prayer can.

Our job = humility, prayer, seeking God’s face, turning from evil
God’s job = hearing, forgiving us, HEALING OUR LAND

We cannot heal the USA by carrying guns and killing thugs while continuing to idolize money, porn, hatred of politicians or anyone, idolizing violent movies or team sports, etc. It has not worked, and it will not work.

YOU SAID: To make things even more obvious: what would you do if, in a rural village, you see a mountain lion attacking a child? (One, of very formidable size, was caught a year ago in a town that I visit.) Or, perhaps, you walk in a city and see a rabid pitbull attacking a pregnant woman? (That also happened, saw it in the news somewhere.) You cannot convince an animal - especially a deathly sick animal - to change its ways.

Animals are not people, so killing them with a weapon to defend a human life has no eternal consequences. I like a good burger now and then too.

YOU SAID: You can also note that there are not too many shades of gray between an animal and a thug. Intelligence and social manners are not binary. A creature can have none of them, or all of them, or anywhere in between. Having human genes is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a human.

True, but thugs are still people, and murdering one against Matthew 26:52 has severe consequences. It’s God that allows us time and presence of mind to repent.

I SAID: Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.

IN RESPONSE YOU SAID: [The Scripture sometimes gives different answers to slightly different questions not because it is contradictory but because the situations are not the same. Sometimes we see the difference in the context, in other cases we do not.]

“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,”

YOU SAID: Not a contradiction. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts you or kills you. For example, imagine that an armed intruder breaks into your home. To protect your family you grab your trusty revolver. The burglar shoots you. You shoot the burglar. You both die. Your death is the punishment for taking your sword. You knew the deal. You still went ahead. Why? Because you saved others.

At the cost of your soul. Whereas, when you re-read Matthew 1-2, you’ll realize 5 dreams are given to believers in the LORD to warn and inform. I am blessed with dreams that warn of coming car accidents, and family deaths. I come against those dreams in binding prayer, and they don’t happen. The need for a gun is born out of a lack of hearing from God.

Do you really think Joe GunOwner could read Matthew 26:52, and sell his gun in honor of obeying Jesus, and then God rewarding Joe GunOwner with a thug that kills him? Do you believe God to be so unmerciful?

Did you read the parsing I did of Luke 22:36-38? Jesus quoted scripture that was unfolding before them where the disciples were counted as transgressors by picking up swords. Please do a full parsing of Luke 22:36-38 to show me how I mis-parsed it.

YOU SAID: In this light it is perfectly clear why one shall not wantonly brandish the sword. It is not consequence-free. This action is reserved only for the most dire circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it. The case of George Zimmerman is a very good illustration of this principle.

What you call action might better be categorized as sin. Where does the Bible say that sin “is reserved only for the most dire of circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it”? What do you think the price is that George Zimmerman paid that day when he killed Trayvon in self-defense?

“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors

YOU SAID: This requires a Christian to be law-abiding. This is not under debate. The problem arises when the laws themselves, or their executors, are wrong. The Bible does not specify how human laws are put in place, and how those governors are assigned. This means it’s under the purview of our social order. We are free to elect our kings and our governors, and we are free to make our own laws. We are also free to change them whenever the society finds it necessary. God only specifies the framework within which we are allowed to manage our affairs. For example, it is prohibited to murder public officials just because you don’t like their policies. (Hardly anyone proposes that.)

Does scripture say in 1 Peter 2:13 to submit to “every ordinance of man” or “every ordinanace of man that you think is good, and the executors are good”. The scripture is plain, but you spent the above paragraph coming up with reasons why not to obey, or why this or why that. All without scripture.

1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”

YOU SAID: It is essential to read the entire chapter. It is about Saul rebelling against God: Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

Re-read Romans 13:4 which talks about government authorities saying: “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Government is a minister of God. Therefore, if rebellion against God is sin per 1 Samuel 15:23, why is rebellion against a “minister of God” per Romans 13:4 NOT sin?

YOU SAID: As matter of fact, it was Samuel who lawfully rebelled against Saul, the current king - and his rebellion was not simply legal, it was divinely inspired, and it had full support of God. God needed someone to tell Saul that he erred. Your quote, in fact, supports the position that errant rulers shall be made to answer for their mistakes. How exactly that is to be done? It varies. In Samuel’s case, a talk was sufficient: Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God.”

Samuel did not rebel. Samuel told Saul that Saul rebelled, and Saul immediately agreed. Samuel did not point a sword and Saul and command Saul to change Saul’s mind. Equating Samuel using words to correct Saul, with US Citizens using guns to “correct” soldiers and police who come for them is not where you were going, right?

I SAID: Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.

YOU SAID IN RESPONSE : Job’s shoes are pretty large. When someone among us is born to fill them, then perhaps we can revisit this issue. Saints have their own ways; but I am not one, and most people on this Earth aren’t saints either.

There are many commands in the Old and New Testament for believers in the LORD to be perfect. It is a requirement, and God doesn’t command us to do things that are impossible. Here’s a list of verses you should look at: http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/15_christian_perfection.pdf

YOU SAID: I have to go back to work now, no matter that it’s almost midnight on the West Coast. I know that nobody is going to do my job for me. (The criterion here is simple: if I can do it then it’s up to me to do it.) Thank you for the discussion, and best wishes!

I have other things to do as well. Thanks for your time.

YOU SAID: P.S. I do not subscribe to ping lists; instead I just browse the forum occasionally, read, and reply when it is appropriate. I’m actually pretty busy, I have more work to do than I can handle. This work is something that people actually need to do good things with, so I cannot be away from my design environment for long.

S’ok. I don’t take it personally. There’s a lot of rejection in life, and especially in evangelism. Maybe I’ll see you down the road on FR.

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