Posted on 07/03/2013 9:04:28 AM PDT by FreedomOutpost
That, and excerpting the material. I believe material from blogs is supposed to be posted in full.
What you gave me was, "The Founding Fathers did such-and-such because I think that's what they would have done."
I did you the service of explaining to you, in detail, why such an approach is not remotely the way to understand history or to arrive at truth.
You did me the disservice of refusing to even read and understand it.
And that, my friend, is how someone who perhaps wants to be on the side of the truth ends up on the exact wrong side. Which is what you've done, my friend.
I wish you a good weekend.
And obviously I do, or I wouldn’t spend so much time opposing lying propaganda myself.
Again, I wish you a good weekend.
Did you say a prayer for Lieutenant Quarles Harris Jr.? It will make you feel better.
He is some of the fruit we have come to know you Beast worshiping darksiders by.
The Beast is rising, Jeff, and you're on the team, wearing the Beast's mark, suited up in uniform with all the pride and arrogance you can muster and putting points on the board.
I just read about another Mexican police chief (I think) who was killed by your side's fast and furious fiasco.
You really need to get off that crazy train, Jeff. Not kidding.
Say that prayer we talked about, turn in your membership card and get the outta there!
“””””When someone makes dozens of bullsh*t claims IN A ROW, without even ONE such claim holding up to examination, what are the odds that their next claim to “prove” the same thing is going to be anything other than bullsh*t?.....”””
“”””...Except for stuff that can be and has been explained by compression of the image, the PDF looks just like the photos of the paper document.
“”””
Multiple document experts have examined at the 9 Layer issue and concluded that it could not possibly appear that way as a result of compression. No one has challenged them since. Yet, you cling to that false explanation as though it is the truth. Why?
You Also just dismiss the many month careful through investigation by Sheriff Arpaio. AND also every point we make even when your so obviously wrong.... This is why we say you are intellectually dishonest. People here are angry with you because You compose long winded posts are like a what an attorney does when they are trying to confuse a jury as they represent a guilty client. I for one do not want you banned..... I am willing to test my conclusions against any opposition .... including yours.
If you have facts that back up your stupid birther claims, then present them.
Otherwise, you're just another lying birther nutjob.
Oh, wait... Gee. You don't HAVE any facts, do you?
So all you can do is make false accusations and ad hominem attacks.
Oh, and spin bullsh*t claims.
"I was taught this in 5th grade."
No, you weren't.
Produce the textbook, jerk.
You can't, because it doesn't exist.
I know, because I've looked for such a book that says what you claim. There are none.
Ah, but do I have any FACTS to back up my position?
Why, I'm glad you asked. Yes, I do.
Only the entire weight of every credible authority from early America, including the Founding Fathers and those who were close to them.
Which, oddly, people like you never even attempt to address.
Because you can't.
The Meaning of Natural Born Citizen in Early America (Updated 5/18/13)
James Madison, House of Representatives (1789):
"It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. Mr. Smith founds his claim upon his birthright; his ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony."
Madison, the Father of the Constitution, mentions both jus soli (the law of the soil, or place of birth) and jus sanguinis (the law of blood, or parentage) here. But notice the emphasis: "In general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States."
The First Congress (1790):
"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens."
Our very first Congress specified that the overseas-born children of US citizens "shall be considered as natural born Citizens."
This Congress included James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution." These men were well aware of the Presidential eligibility clause, and they clarified that those born overseas to US citizens were eligible to the Presidency. It was obviously quite well known that "natural born citizen" made one eligible to be President, and that is the only place the phrase had been used in national law. So it's clear that the First Congress and President were saying that children who would be born overseas to US citizen parents were eligible to the Presidency.
This makes it absolutely clear: The idea that eligibility requires BOTH birth on US soil AND citizen parents is FALSE.
In this instance, our early leaders specified that citizen parents ALONE was quite enough.
And between the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the Presidency, 16 signers of the Constitution - a full 40% of those who signed the Constitution - were members of the group who approved this Act.
They included: James Madison, Abraham Baldwin, Daniel Carroll, George Clymer, Thomas Fitzsimons, and Nicholas Gilman (US House of Representatives), William Samuel Johnson, Richard Bassett, George Read, William Few, John Langdon, William Paterson, Rufus King, Robert Morris and Pierce Butler (US Senate), and President George Washington.
James Bayard, A Brief Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (1834) - with approval from US Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall
"It is not necessary that a man should be born in this country, to be 'a natural born citizen.' It is only requisite that he should be a citizen by birth, and that is the case with all the children of citizens who have ever resided in this country, though born in a foreign country."
This was in Bayard's section on Presidential eligibility.
Chief Justice John Marshall, who was Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court for 35 years, starting just 13 years after the Constitution was ratified, read Bayard's exposition of the Constitution and sent him a letter correcting him that Congress probably didn't need to ask the States for permission to build post and military roads - they had already been authorized to make such improvements.
It was a fairly subtle error. Bayard had written "that the power of Congress extends to lay out military and post-roads, through the several States, 'with their assent.'"
Chief Justice Marshall then wrote:
"With this exception, I do not recollect a single statement in your book which is not, in my judgment, entirely just."
Now that's not 100%, but I think it's close. It's clear that Marshall read the book. And the tone of Marshall's note indicates that he read the entire book. If he had not, he could not have made such a blanket statement.
Presidential eligibility is a pretty important topic, and Marshall would not have missed any significant error in that section.
So we have pretty clear word from one of the best authorities in early America as to what "natural born citizen" meant: It means someone who is a citizen by birth. That includes those born citizens in the United States, and it includes those born US citizens because they were born to American parents abroad.
John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson (1785)
In a letter about a treaty with the English, two years before the writing of the Constitution, John Adams wrote:
"...I think about substituting the words 'natural born citizens of the United States,' and 'natural born subjects of Great Britain,' instead of 'the most favored nation.'"
Adams therefore used "natural born citizens of the United States" and "natural born subjects of Great Britain" together and as if the two terms were parallel terms, exactly the same except for the difference between "subject" and "citizen." And Thomas Jefferson was the other person in the dialogue.
"Natural born subject" and "natural born citizen" were used interchangeably by State of Massachusetts (1785-1790).
This is important because it again shows that "natural born citizen" and "natural born subject," except for the difference of subservience to a king, were understood to mean exactly the same thing in the early United States. And "natural born subject" had a long legal history. All persons born in the country, even of alien parents, were "natural born subjects," except for the children of representatives of foreign governments, and of invading armies. Here are some examples:
February, 1785, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING NICHOLAS ROUSSELET AND GEORGE SMITH.”in which it was declared that Nicholas Rousselet and George Smith “shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, rights and privileges of natural born citizens.”
March, 1787, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING WILLIAM MARTIN AND OTHERS.” in which it was declared that William Martin and Others, ”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
October, 1787, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING BARTHOLOMY DE GREGOIRE, AND MARIA THERESA, HIS WIFE, AND THEIR CHILDREN.” in which it was declared that Bartholomy de Gregoire, and Maria Theresa, his wife, their children, ”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, rights and privileges of natural born citizens.”
November, 1788, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING ELISHA BOURN, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that Elisha Bourn and others “shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, & entitled to all the liberties, privileges & immunities of natural born Citizens.”
In March, 1790, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JOHN JARVIS, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED” in which it was declared that John Jarvis and others, “shall be deemed adjudged and taken to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In many or most of the States, in fact, the use of "natural born subject" in law gradually gave way to use of "natural born citizen" in the same circumstances.
French translation of the Constitution by Phillip Mazzei, Thomas Jefferson's VERY close friend and next-door neighbor (translated, 1788):
“Nobody, without being a born citizen, or having been a citizen of the United States at the time…”
This is from Mazzei's sweeping 4-volume work in French, The History and Politics of the United States of America ("Recherches Historiques et Politiques sur les Etats-Unis de l'Amérique Septentrional").
One of the very earliest published statements of what the natural born citizen requirement meant, it equates natural born citizen with born citizen. Given the extremely close lifelong relationship of Jefferson and Mazzei, this can almost certainly be considered authoritative as to what Thomas Jefferson himself understood "natural born citizen" to mean.
French translation by Louis-Alexandre, Duc de la Rochefoucauld, friend of Benjamin Franklin (translated, 1792):
“No one except a ‘natural,’ born a citizen…” (or possibly, “No one except a ‘natural-born citizen’)
By the French Duc de la Rochefoucauld, who knew Benjamin Franklin personally. He and Franklin had previously co-published The Constitutions of the Thirteen United States of America ("Constitutions des Treize Etats-Unis de l'Amérique") in Paris, while Franklin was the American ambassador to France. No mention whatsoever of parentage.
Virginia citizenship law written by Thomas Jefferson (1779):
"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth... shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth, until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed... "
Like so many other passages from history, birthers have tried to twist the wording and make this law say something other than it says. But the fact is, the citizenship law that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1779 for the Commonwealth of Virginia was straight "jus soli," or "law of the soil." It provided that every white person born in Virginia, regardless of the citizenship of his parents, was a citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
Zephaniah Swift, A System of the Laws of the State of Connecticut: In Six Books (1795):
"The children of aliens, born in this state, are considered as natural born subjects, and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens.”
Speaks for the State of Connecticut. Remember, there is no documentation ANYWHERE that says "natural born citizen" ever meant anything different from "natural born subject," except for the difference between "citizen" and "subject." Swift's legal treatise was read all over the United States, including by several Presidents and several US Supreme Court Justices.
Alexander Hamilton on how to understand the meaning of the terms used in the Constitution (1795):
"What is the distinction between direct and indirect taxes? It is a matter of regret that terms so uncertain and vague in so important a point are to be found in the Constitution... unfortunately, there is equally here a want of criterion to distinguish duties, imposts, and excises from taxes... where so important a distinction in the Constitution is to be realized, it is fair to seek the meaning of terms in the statutory language of that country from which our jurisprudence is derived."
Hamilton tells us that our jurisprudence has been derived from that of England, and that if we want to understand the meaning of terms used in the Constitution, the place to look is to the laws of England that came before. This is important because the English common law was the fundamental legal training for every lawyer in America. The Constitution contains a variety of legal terms which appear no place other than in the common law. Those who claim we got the definition from Swiss philosopher Vattel are simply not telling the truth. Vattel never even spoke of "natural born citizens." He spoke of "natives, or indigenes." The latter was mistranslated to "natural born citizens" by a translator in London, England, 10 years after our Constitution was written.
Hamilton said we got the terms in the Constitution from the English common law. It is clear that "natural born citizen" came directly from "natural born subject," which never required citizen or subject parents.
French translation, (translated, 1799):
“No one shall be eligible to the office of President, if he is not born a citizen of the United States…”
Born a citizen. Once again, it appears the correct definition of "natural born citizen" is simply: born a citizen.
St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1803):
“That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted) is a happy means of security against foreign influence… A very respectable political writer makes the following pertinent remarks upon this subject. “Prior to the adoption of the constitution, the people inhabiting the different states might be divided into two classes: natural born citizens, or those born within the state, and aliens, or such as were born out of it.”
Tucker was one of the most important early legal experts. His book became "the most popular reference work for students and practitioners of United States law until the mid-19th century." He totally equates "native-born" (which always simply meant born in America) with "natural born," and approvingly quotes another writer who said natural born citizens are "those born within the state."
Garder v. Ward, 2 Mass. 244 (1805):
“...a man born within the jurisdiction of the common law is a citizen of the country wherein he is born. By this circumstance of his birth, he is subjected to the duty of allegiance which is claimed and enforced by the sovereign of his native land, and becomes reciprocally entitled to the protection of that sovereign, and to the other rights and advantages which are included in the term “citizenship.”
In Massachusetts, they followed the common law. This is consistent with Wong Kim Ark and everything else. (Except, of course, the claims of birthers.)
Kilham v. Ward 2 Mass. 236, 26 (1806):
“The doctrine of the common law is that every man born within its jurisdiction is a subject of the sovereign of the country where he is born, and allegiance is not personal to the sovereign in the extent that has been contended for; it is due to him in his political capacity of sovereign of the territory where the person owing the allegiance as born.”
Once again, Massachusetts uses the common law as the precedent for citizenship.
James Monroe Administration (1812):
In 1811, a James McClure was arrested and held by the French, who were at war with England. He claimed American citizenship but was initially denied help from the United States. Birthers have claimed that a newspaper letter regarding the incident, from a writer using the pseudonym of "Publius," reflected the position of the James Monroe Administration. But once the matter began to be talked about publicly, the Monroe Administration came to McClure's aid. They sent a letter to the French:
"I have the honor to enclose several affidavits and certificates... from the City of Charleston proving that James McClure now detained in France as a British Prisoner of War was born in Charleston since the Revolution. To these Papers is annexed a Certificate of W. Johnson Esq. one of the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States before whom the affidavits were taken stating 'that agreeable to the laws and usage of the United States, the said affidavits and Certificates are sufficient to establish the fact that James M McClure above named is a Citizen of the United States.'"
So Supreme Court Justice Johnson and the Monroe Administration said that McClure was a US citizen solely on the basis of where he was born. No mention seems to have been made at all of his parentage.
Ainslie v. Martin, 9 Mass. 454, 456, 457 (1813):
“Our statutes recognize alienage and its effects, but have not defined it. We must therefore look to the common law for its definition. By this law, to make a man an alien, he must be born without the allegiance of the commonwealth; although persons may be naturalized or expatriated by statute, or have the privileges of subjects conferred or secured by a national compact.”
And once again for Massachusetts. In defining who an alien is, they also define citizenship, because everyone who isn't an alien is a citizen.
Amy v. Smith, 11 Ky. 326, 340 (Ky. 1822)
“The 5th section of the 2d article provides, “that no person except a natural born citizen,” shall become president. A plain acknowledgment, that a man may become a citizen by birth, and that he may be born such.”
Like Chief Justice John Marshall, the State of Kentucky equated "natural born citizen" with "CITIZEN BY BIRTH."
From a Spanish language book on the Constitution (translated, 1825):
“The President is elected from among all citizens born in the United States, of the age of thirty-five years…”
From among ALL CITIZENS BORN IN THE UNITED STATES. No mention of parentage.
French translation by the private secretary of the Marquis de Lafayette, who was a personal friend of our first six Presidents (1826):
“No individual, other than a citizen born in the United States…”
This translation is important for a number of reasons. First, the Marquis had himself been declared a "natural born citizen forever" of Maryland, by the State's legislature. So he had darn good reason to know what the phrase meant. Secondly, he was a good friend of every single one of our first six Presidents. This included George Washington, James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Monroe. (And John Quincy Adams, too.) He had served as a General in the Revolutionary War under Washington, was instrumental in our gaining France's support, and was such a hero in America and France that he was known as "The Hero of the Two Worlds."
James Kent, COMMENTARIES ON AMERICAN LAW (1826):
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
Common law, natural born subjects, SAME THING APPLIES HERE. Also, subject and citizen can be used interchangeably. Kent was another of our top early legal experts, which we are rapidly running out of. More from Kent:
“As the President is required to be a native citizen of the United States…. Natives are all persons born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the United States.”
Once again, NATIVE. Allegiance simply refers to the same historical precedent. Any person born within the country was born within the allegiance of the country, unless his parents were foreign ambassadors or royalty, or members of an occupying army. We also added two more exceptions: Indians in tribes, because Indian tribes were considered to be just like foreign nations that we did not control and made treaties with, and slaves, because they were legally considered to be property, not people.
French books on the Constitution:
“The President must be a born citizen [or born a citizen] of the United States…" (1826)
Born citizen, born a citizen.
“No one, unless he is a native citizen…” (1829)
Native citizen. No mention of parentage whatsoever.
By the way, the list of quotes from this time period saying the President had to be a "native" is not exhaustive. I have only included those from the most authoritative sources.
Leake v. Gilchrist, 13 N.C. 73 (N.C. 1829)
“The country where one is born, how accidental soever his birth in that place may have been, and although his parents belong to another country, is that to which he owes allegiance. Hence the expression natural born subject or citizen, & all the relations thereout growing. To this there are but few exceptions, and they are mostly introduced by statutes and treaty regulations, such as the children of seamen and ambassadors born abroad, and the like.”
Again explicitly states that birth in the country makes on a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, even if one's parents are ALIENS.
William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States, pg. 86 (1829)
“Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity.”
You really can't get any clearer, well-stated, and absolute. Again, Rawle was a legal expert. He was VERY close to both Franklin AND Washington, held meetings with them in the months leading up to the Constitutional Convention, and was in Philadelphia WHILE THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION WAS TAKING PLACE.
Justice Joseph Story, concurring opinion, Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 155,164. (1830):
“Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children even of aliens born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto are subjects by birth.”
Story was a LEGENDARY Justice on the Supreme Court. He would soon write the first comprehensive treatise on the provisions of the U.S. Constitution (see below, in 1840). And he tells us, quite clearly, that NOTHING is BETTER SETTLED.
American Jurist and Law Magazine, January, 1834:
“From the close of the revolutionary war to the time of the adoption of the constitution of the United States, all persons born in this country became citizens of the respective States within whose jurisdiction they were born, by the rule of the common law, unless where they were prevented from becoming citizens by the constitution or statutes of the place of their birth.”
Again: The rule was by the common law.
Another French translation, 1837 (translated back):
“No one can be President, unless he is born in the United States…”
Once again, born in the US. No mention at all of parentage. As is ALWAYS the case.
State v. Manuel, 4 Dev. & Bat. 20, 24-26 (1838):
“Before our Revolution, all free persons born within the dominions of the King of Great Britain, whatever their color or complexion, were native-born British subjects; those born out of his allegiance were aliens... Upon the Revolution, no other change took place in the law of North Carolina than was consequent upon the transition from a colony dependent on an European King to a free and sovereign State. The term ‘citizen,’ as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term ’subject’ in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people, and he who before as a ’subject of the king’ is now ‘a citizen of the State.”
Straight-out tells us: natural born subjects became natural born citizens, and NO OTHER CHANGE in the citizenship rules took place. In other words, children of aliens born in the US were natural born citizens, because they were always natural born subjects before.
Tennessee State Legislature, An Act to Regulate and Declare the Rights of Foreigners (1838)
"Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Tennessee, That all natural born citizens, or persons born within the limits of the United States, and all aliens subject to the restrictions hereinafter mentioned, may inherit real estate and make their pedigree by descent from any ancestor lineal or collateral…”
Clearly defines what "natural born citizen" meant to the Tennessee State Legislature in 1838. Anyone born within the limits of the United States was a natural born citizen without any regard to parentage.
From Spanish-language books on the Constitution (translated):
“No one can be President who has not been born a citizen of the United States, or who is one at the time of the adoption of this Constitution…” (1837)
Born a citizen.
“The President must be a citizen born in the United States…" (1848)
Born in the United States. No mention of parents.
Acts of the State of Tennessee passed at the General Assembly, pg. 266 (1838):
“That all natural born citizens, or persons born within the limits of the United States, and all aliens subject to the restrictions hereinafter mentioned, may inherit real estate and make their pedigree by descent from any ancestor lineal or collateral…”
The State of Tennessee defined natural born citizens are those born in the United States. No mention at all of parents.
Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, in his Constitutional handbook, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States. (1840)
"It is not too much to say, that no one, but a native citizen, ought ordinarily to be intrusted with an office so vital to the safety and liberties of the people."
Native citizen.
Bouvier Law Dictionary (1843):
“...no person except a natural born subject can be a governor of a State, or President of the United States.”
America's first prominent law dictionary. Uses NATURAL BORN SUBJECT as an exact equivalent for natural born citizen! Thus showing again, there was no practical difference between the two.
Lynch vs. Clarke (NY 1844):
“The term citizen, was used in the constitution as a word, the meaning of which was already established and well understood. And the constitution itself contains a direct recognition of the subsisting common law principle, in the section which defines the qualification of the President… The only standard which then existed, of a natural born citizen, was the rule of the common law, and no different standard has been adopted since. Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born, but of alien parents, could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution? I think not. ”
Flat-out ruled that the US born child of alien parents was eligible to the Presidency.
Mr. Clarke's attorneys actually attempted to invoke Vattel. Vice Chancellor Sandford rejected their arguments, noting:
"[Vattel says] in reference to the inquiry whether children born of citizens in a foreign country, are citizens, that the laws have decided the question in several countries, and it is necessary to follow their regulations."
In other words, even according to Vattel, the citizenship laws of England and America were different from his Swiss ideas.
Lysander Spooner, The Unconstitutionality of Slavery, pg. 119 (1845)
“Every person, then, born in the country, and that shall have attained the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States, is eligible to the office of president.”
Once again, every person born in the country. No mention of parents.
The New Englander, Vol. III, pg. 434 (1845)
“It is the very essence of the condition of a natural born citizen, of one who is a member of the state by birth within and under it, that his rights are not derived from the mere will of the state.”
A natural born citizen is a member of the state by birth within and under it. Just another way of saying "citizen by birth."
Because all of the "evidence" presented by those so-called "document experts" has been shown to be bullshit.
A conservative author and computer consultant wrote an entire book on the forgery stuff. If you haven't read it, you should. I've read it. It holds up, and it shows that all the so-called "experts" who said the PDF was a forgery well full of crap.
You Also just dismiss the many month careful through investigation by Sheriff Arpaio.
Woodman debunked almost everything they said, before they even said it.
Woodman's evaluation was also backed up by one of the world's top REAL experts in PDF image compression, who pretty much invented the technology, Ricardo de Queiroz.
AND also every point we make even when your so obviously wrong.... This is why we say you are intellectually dishonest.
I don't think you can name a single point on which I'm "obviously wrong." I've presented very good evidence to back up every single point I've made.
People here are angry with you because You compose long winded posts are like a what an attorney does when they are trying to confuse a jury as they represent a guilty client. I for one do not want you banned..... I am willing to test my conclusions against any opposition .... including yours.
Then I invite you to do so. You can start with the long list of quotes I just posted from our Founding Fathers, their close associates, and our best early legal experts.
Check out every fact. Let me know if you find a single one that isn't true. If you do, and provide real proof, then I will correct it.
I guess that death list stuff is getting to you, isn't it.
Them's your people. Get to know them. You've got a long future together.
Others gave you names and dates. Your stuff has been countered over and over again, but some here who really clean your clock. Why not address them? Still blistered from the last time?
The Logic is there and understandable, more so if you put yourself in the FFs position. I showed it to you. Walk me through it. Show me the error.
Plus, that is what I was taught in school. The 5th grade. That was rough year for me. I sorta retreated into school that year, which is probably why I learned it or anything else.
Plus, I remember it because of some of the kids were military and the issue was personal. That was well before McLame and your team did the little bill to cover things and make it kosher (can I use that word with you?).
If I recall, I have a memory that it was an extra credit question: if you were born on base overseas, were you an NBC? I think the answer was No, because they weren't born in country and some of the kids were pissed. I definitely remember that part.
So...spam away. Call me some more names. Show your true self, I dare ya. (The déjà vu is strong with you. Shall I guess?)
Blood and soil, both. Not one or the other. Both. All must agree to keep it in the (natural born) family.
Not so for the obama story, that's why you guys killed the good Lt. Harris, the man who accidentally knew too much...no wonder you're desperate. I'd be scared of your team too, if I were you.
JW: “I CARE ABOUT THE CONSERVATIVE CAUSE. I CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH.”
So JW, if you care about the truth, please answer the following questions.
1. Why has Obama made every attempt to conceal his past through litigation and stonewalling?
2. Obama could easily address the concerns of Sheriff Arpaio and Zullo and Taitz if he would give permission to release all records held by the Hawaii Department of Health related to himself. Why doesn’t he?
3. Obama could request that Occidental release all his records and transcripts during his years in attendance. Why doesn’t he? What could he possibly have to hide?
4. Obama could request the release of all his passport information to the public. Why doesn’t he?
I thought you wanted to hear truth. Why not these questions answered? If I were President (or any public office), I would have no problem at all releasing this sort of information. Would you??
Unlike you, I am more than willing to be wrong as long as the whole truth is told. I maintain that the whole truth is being kept secret. Why can’t we examine so many documents? Why are they kept hidden? We can not even look at the Hospital records, college funding, Passport history and others. All this would confirm if you are correct.
Does Sheriff Arpaio with his long history of law enforcement service have a reputation of manipulating investigations? NO!!!! Now, all of a sudden, at 81 years old he becomes a political hack for the right??? Doesn’t seem plausible to me.
If Woodman’s conclusions that the PDF file is a true and accurate copy of an original document, why would the investigation ignore those findings. According to the ccp they did not ignore Woodmans findings but rather tried multiple times to replicate it without success...... There is so much smoke here.... There is a fire somewhere.
Not one single thing I've ever said has ever been shown to be false, unless it was some extremely minor point which I acknowledged and corrected. You can't produce even one example. It doesn't exist. You're a nut.
The Logic is there and understandable, more so if you put yourself in the FFs position. I showed it to you. Walk me through it. Show me the error.
I already did, moron. IN DETAIL. And in true birther style, you refused to read or acknowledge it.
Plus, that is what I was taught in school. The 5th grade.
No, you weren't. YOU'RE A LIAR. Or at the VERY least, you had a teacher who was a complete idiot, who taught you something that wasn't in any textbook, because it isn't true.
You can't produce any proof whatsoever of even ONE TEXTBOOK in the ENTIRE HISTORY of the United States that EVER said what you claim. Such a textbook doesn't exist.
There are, however, MANY textbooks that say Presidential eligibility requires a person to be "born a citizen" or "born in the United States."
BUT NOT ONE SINGLE ONE, FROM THE TIME OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS UNTIL NOW, THAT SAYS WHAT YOU CLAIM.
Um... to toy with birthers? To string birthers along because they work to his advantage politically? Because refusal to cooperate and making a motion for dismissal is the standard way people usually answer a legal challenge? There could be any number of reasons for his behavior. I don't know. Ask him.
2. Obama could easily address the concerns of Sheriff Arpaio and Zullo and Taitz if he would give permission to release all records held by the Hawaii Department of Health related to himself. Why doesn’t he?
Because they're bullshit. Because he's already done far more to address the question than any President ever in the history of the country. Because it's not a pressing political issue with Benghazi and the Justice Department and Egypt and the IRS matters. And probably because, again, the simmering birther issue only plays to his advantage.
You imagine Obama is sweating over the birther issue. He isn't. If he even thinks about it at all (doubtful, becaue there's a round of golf next Thursday and a bunch of coal-fired power plants to shut down and some big-money donors to entertain next week and Michele's next Hawaiian vacation to think about) - if, as I say, he even thinks about it at all, he's laughing his ass off about it.
3. Obama could request that Occidental release all his records and transcripts during his years in attendance. Why doesn’t he? What could he possibly have to hide?
See the answer to #2.
4. Obama could request the release of all his passport information to the public. Why doesn’t he?
See the answer to #2.
If I were President (or any public office), I would have no problem at all releasing this sort of information. Would you??
If I were President, and I gave people a reasonable answer, and that wasn't good enough for a few people, I would ignore them. Especially if their going on and on about it only played to my advantage politically.
“Because all of the “evidence” presented by those so-called “document experts” has been shown to be bullshit.”
A blogger may have determined the way the White House LFBC PDF was created.
http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/the-proof-forgery-done-by-xerox-workcentre-7655/
The blogger (NBC) printed a copy of the White House LFBC PDF and then scanned the paper copy back into the computer using a Xerox WorkCentre 7655 scanner.
The resulting scan had five layers which are very similar to the White House LFBC PDF’s layers.
The Xerox 7655’s software uses Mixed Raster Content (MRC) compression to reduce the file size. From the Xerox brochure for the 7655 under scanning features,
New scan to export compression formats:
• MRC (multi-layer)
• JBIG2
The White House used a Xerox WorkCentre 7655 to upload Obama’s and Biden’s 2010 taxes.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/POTUS_taxes.pdf
Unfortunately, the blogger has not posted a copy of the PDF, instead the blogger seems to be challenging the Cold Case Posse to try it and see if they get different results.
But someone else did the same thing with the White House PDF but used a Xerox WorkCentre 7535. That person got a PDF with 17 layers (similar in appearance to the White house PDF’s).
http://nativeborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/wh-lfbc-scanned-xerox-7535-wc.pdf
The Xerox WorkCentre 7535 also uses MRC compression.
Sorry, I'm more than willing to be wrong.
Again, I encourage you to read everything available on both sides of the issue.
I maintain that the whole truth is being kept secret. Why can’t we examine so many documents? Why are they kept hidden? We can not even look at the Hospital records, college funding, Passport history and others. All this would confirm if you are correct.
Again, if Obama even thinks about it at all, I can imagine his feeling would be a combination of happiness that people are out there making a big deal over nothing, and glee that by withholding information he's able to piss you off.
If Woodman’s conclusions that the PDF file is a true and accurate copy of an original document, why would the investigation ignore those findings.
I think Woodman goes into some of the history somewhere, in his book or his blog. Big birther Jerome Corsi was part of the posse. Woodman reported contacted Arpaio's office, but they never even spoke to him. Last I heard that was still true.
According to the ccp they did not ignore Woodmans findings but rather tried multiple times to replicate it without success...... There is so much smoke here.... There is a fire somewhere.
Woodman addressed the idea of replicating the PDF and why that was a flawed idea.
As for smoke and fire, I commented on something like this earlier in the thread.
A huge truckload of bullsh*t is nothing more than a huge truckload of bullsh*t.
Again, I encourage you to read everything on both sides.
Now just about every time I do that, the person I'm talking to responds by starting to call me names and indicating they really don't want to know the truth. if you can avoid doing that, and actually go out and read everything on both sides, and go by the facts, then you're better than most.
Spelling and grammar errors, typos, embarrassing personal history and all.
You've taken the time to email me, given me spam and insults, examples of names and dates others have refuted.
I offered my take, my education and experience and you call me a liar and give me insults. I suppose you've given it back to me for calling you a Beast worshiping darksider. Fair enough.
Jeff, or whatever you are, I'm trying to learn better way, so I'm going to use you as another example to learn from and use you to take more of my rough edges off. I guess that makes you my teacher, after all.
Thanks for the education. You have your American civics wrong, but that's not your gift.
You have shown me I still have work to do inside, but at least learning here, this way, keeps me from being arrested and feeling guilty for what I did to you. You sure have a way about you.
(Blood and soil. That's the highest standard. Both, not one or the other.)
Jeff - there you go again, quoting the naturalization act of 1790
“The First Congress (1790):
“And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens.” “
all the while knowing that the words “natural born” were excised in the 1795 version when Congress corrected their error.
When you do things like this it undercuts everything else you post. Taking things out of context, obfuscating and attaching misinterpretations to, what appears to be, most everything you write, screams out a nefarious agenda.
So was this blogger able to show how the signature stamp appeared alone in one layer, imported and then rotate it into Obama’s birth certificate?
Please don’t feed the trolls.
As I've stated many times before, that's irrelevant to the point.
It doesn't change the fact that the First Congress, which with President Washington included 40% of the Signers of the Constitution, quite obviously DID NOT BELIEVE IT TOOK BOTH BIRTH ON US SOIL PLUS CITIZEN PARENTS TO MAKE A PERSON ELIGIBLE TO BE PRESIDENT.
So the Framers of the Constitution clearly DID NOT INTEND the birther definition.
If they had, the First Congress would never have passed that Act.
You can argue it was a "mistake."
Really?
You mean that Father of the Constitution James Madison, Abraham Baldwin, Daniel Carroll, George Clymer, Thomas Fitzsimons, Nicholas Gilman, William Samuel Johnson, Richard Bassett, George Read, William Few, John Langdon, William Paterson, Rufus King, Robert Morris, Pierce Butler, and President George Washington didn't know what the hell they were doing when they passed that Act?
Really?
Okay, let's go with that theory. Maybe they had a big party and all got drunk. In the House, AND in the Senate, and in the White House. And maybe someone said, "Hey! I know what. Lissen t' thish. Lesh all pass some stupid-ash bill where we don't know wha' the 'ell we're talkin' 'bout." And maybe they all had a laugh and passed a bill that contradicted what they had previously decided (without anybody ever writing it down) that Presidential eligibility meant.
Well, that's one theory. But how about a better one?
How about this: President George Washington, and Father of the Constitution James Madison, and all together 40% of the men who signed the Constitution knew exactly what they were talking about when they passed that Act.
Personally... I'd bet on the latter scenario.
Okay, so now it looks like the idea that no one has or can replicate the effects in the PDF is in some very serious doubt.
Woodman’s point was that no one could replicate it manually, either, and explain why they did it that way.
In other words, it was explainable as the result of file compression (this was confirmed by de Queiroz, who pretty much invented the file compression). It was not at all explainable as the work of a graphic artist.
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