LA: CCW Fail: Gun Stolen in Armed Robbery

Gun Watch ^ | 26 December, 2014 | Dean Weingarten

[marktwain]

Another concealed carry failure happened that might have been prevented by open carry.  In this rare event,  a concealed carry weapons (CCW) permit holder was robbed of his defensive firearm.   He was pistol whipped to the head before he could draw, indicating that his attackers did not wish to draw attention with a shot, and/or they did not wish an obvious murder.   It is likely that if the victim had been openly carrying his firearm, the robbers would have chosen less dangerous prey.   From uptownmessenger.com:

The victim, a man in his 40s, was near Henry Clay and Coliseum around 9 p.m. Monday, Dec. 22, when he was approached by two attackers who hit him with a gun, according to the initial NOPD report. They then “put him face down on the ground, frisked him, and stole the victim’s concealed weapon,” the report states.

No discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of open and concealed carry used to be complete without the obligatory theory that open carry was more dangerous.  It has been asserted that a criminal will target the open carrier because they are armed.   Here is an example from freerepublic:

Why would anyone want the bad guy to shoot him first?

Fortunately, the gun culture is becoming educated in the matter.   People now realize that open carry promotes tactical deterrence.  There have been two known instances where open carriers have been targeted, but they are very rare.  The other side of the coin also occurs.  As in the above case, concealed carriers are targeted because their attacker(s) do *not* know that they are armed, and the attacker(s) sometimes win.

Both cases are rare, though my reading makes me suspect that concealed carriers are targeted more often.  True, they have surprise on their side, but it does not help much if their attacker(s) successfully carry out their own surprise attack first, as happened in this case.

As always, situational awareness is more  important than merely being armed, but a gun and situational awareness works in cases where situational awareness alone does not.

Animal predators chose prey that they can overcome with little danger to themselves.  If they fail in the victim selection process, they get selected out of the gene pool.   Because predators rely on multiple victims, their cumulative risk is much higher than that of each individual victim.

This is the same reason that most criminal predators chose unarmed victims; prison surveys confirm this fact.

Certainly, surprise can be on the side of a concealed carrier.   Whether they will be able to utilize that surprise is a separate issue.   What the open carrier loses in surprise, he gains in tactical deterrence.   Most criminals do not want to attack an armed victim.   It is one of the reasons that attacks on police are relatively rare. 

While concealed carriers lose tactical deterrence, society gains strategic deterrence.  Robbers have more uncertainty about who may be armed.

Both methods of carry have advantages and disadvantages.  Law abiding people should be able to chose which works for them in whatever circumstances they find themselves.

I use both methods frequently.   I am blessed by living in the state of Arizona, so I have both legally available to me in most situations.  With a little luck, the great state of Texas will join Arizona in 2015 by restoring the freedom to openly carry arms that was restricted during reconstruction.  If Texas restores legal open carry, the number of states that ban open carry will be reduced from six to five.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch

[marktwain]

It seems more likely for a person who is concealed carrying to be attacked than one who is openly carrying.

[TurboZamboni]

I don't think so.

Saint Gentle Giant and fellow thugs attack openly armed, trained people.

I think it's more about how you carry yourself and situational awareness. I know some people who carry concealed as do I and I'm convinced it they ever had to use it, would likely be ‘too little, too late’.

Unfortunately,many permit carrier's training ended at the last carry class they were required to take to get their license.

[Red in Blue PA]

I always hear how “dangerous” it is to OC......yet never see any similar stories about OCers having their guns taken and/or being attacked.

[Secret Agent Man]

Remember, all,

if you are a target of a surprise attack, aka ambush,

that is a disparity of force situation,

and it allows you to use equal OR GREATER force than what you perceive your attackers have.

In other words you can immediately draw your weapon and fire.

Further if it’s more than one attacker, that is a second disparity of force reason and even if the DA or anyone else would discount it b/c you were ambushed, multiple attackers allows you to use greater force.

Always remember disparity of force. If you are weaker, older, smaller, injured, disabled, are surprise attacked, or attacked by multiple thugs, you can use greater force because every one of these situations puts you at an immediate disadvantage to your attackers.

[Billthedrill]

I have to respectfully disagree. Nothing in that scenario would have been changed if the victim had been carrying openly except that that the perps wouldn’t have had to frisk him. Sometimes all you really have to protect you is situational awareness.

[TurboZamboni]

“More dangerous” depends on the carrier’s size,training,speed,location,and phyiscal health as do the same factors regarding the attacker.

I doubt open carry granny would fare well against Gentle Giant were she not aware,trained, and ready.

Not a fan of open carry, but to each their own-you roll the dice and take your chances.

[Hugin]

Assuming facts not in evidence. It’s equally possible two thugs could target someone openly carrying a gun to steal it. They would be alerted and would approach more cautiously to get the drop on him.

[dvan]

This opens up a whole range of possibilities. One of which is the possibility that the CCW carrier was inadequately prepared and trained. Just having a CCW permit does not mean the person is prepared. By forms of Carry require that the person be ‘situationally’ aware of what is going on around him/her. By having a pistol or either ‘carry’ the person should maintain themselves in a high degree of awareness observing everything and everyone around. Even police officers must do this.

Unfortunately the NYPD officers seated in their patrol car were probably not in condition ‘Orange’. Recently some cities were considering installing 360degree cameras in patrol cars.

[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

Something is amiss in this situation. Examine the crime.

(After a pistol whipping cheap shot) They then “put him face down on the ground, frisked him, and stole the victim’s concealed weapon,” the report states.

Even the first person who commented in the news article said, “They took his gun, but not his wallet?” First red flag.

It seems to me that they *knew* he had a cc weapon, and their intent from the start was to get it. Why else put somebody down and *frisk* them?

This sounds like a scene from a Mickey Spillane novel.

So unless the guy intentionally, or accidentally, flashed his gun in public, or it was obvious through his clothes, it would behoove the police to follow up with some questions to the victim, because the assumption should be that he knew his assailants.

The location, Henry Clay and Coliseum in NOLA, by Google street view, is a residential suburban area. Side streets, lawns and houses. Not a typical mugging location either.

[LucianOfSamasota]

It is possible to lose a gunfight, whether concealed or open carry.

The gun, and your ability to deal with the situation, just give you a fighting chance.

[dvan]

I agree with you totally. Just going to a range periodically does not prepare a person mentally for self defense. The attached video should provide more info:

http://concealedcarryconfidence.org/

There are several organizations that provide excellent firearms training and especially mental preparation.

[dvan]

I agree! Depending upon the time and place it would be easier to distract the carrier while the other make his attack. I have 35 years experience in federal law enforcement. I have never felt secure open carrying even in uniform. CCW should provide the element of surprise if you are aware of the situation and the degree of danger. If you happened to be in bank or business which was being held up- open carrying who do you think is more likely to be targeted?

Concealed carry just might provide more time to evaluate the situation and the element of surprise to lessen that innocent bystanders get injured or killed.

[exnavy]

Ideally we all should be openly carrying with a back up hidden on our person as well.

[exnavy]

The wonderful thing about open carry is that can be a “long” gun instead of a handgun. Granny would do just fine with a 20 gauge pump with 7 round magazine.

[Hot Tabasco]

Saint Gentle Giant and fellow thugs attack openly armed, trained people.

The Gentle Giant openly attacked an armed LEO because he had just committed a robbery and he knew he was going to be busted by the cop. His only salvation was to overcome the cop and hopefully get away.......I know, totally irrational thinking but it is what it is.

An openly carrying individual on the other hand is unlikely to become a target because the last thing an assailant preying on an innocent citizen wants is resistance......And an openly carrying individual is likely to provide the very resistance, either with the weapon or other means, that the assailant does not wish to encounter.

[TigersEye]

No one can be prepared for everything. Stuff happens.

[Hot Tabasco]

There are several organizations that provide excellent firearms training and especially mental preparation.

Which one did you attend and would you recommend it?

[DaveA37]

My guess is they knew he had a ccw and/or took him by surprise only to find he had a gun on him.

[DaveA37]

My guess is they knew he had a ccw and/or took him by surprise only to find he had a gun on him.

[TurboZamboni]

Gunsite
Front Sight
Sig Academy