Posted on 07/03/2015 1:34:31 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
BTW Hearing Protection will not prevent hearing damage from low frequency sounds such as artillery fire, loud music {on the lower bass sounds} etc. The reason is the human skull is part of your hearing system. Lower frequency noises penetrate the body much more so than higher ones. Don’t believe it? Next time a kid drives by with the sub woofers cranked up try stopping up your ears as tight as you can. It will help but not much and you’ll also feel the sound.
I really don't think that it has much to do with hearing loss.
I can tie it together and I learned the hard way what I’m talking about but I got to step out for an hour or two to check on my mother. Check back in a bit and I’ll post how this ties in with PTSD and works. It’s not tinfoil or junk science.
By age 34 or 35 I began having serious issues with concentration at work, bad startle reactions to certain noises and optics, and more and more some bad events in my life especially 1985-93 began to bother me especially when I was about to go to bed. So much so it seemed as if someone when I was tired would pop in a movie of sorts and I'd recall the events and the fear of repeats would also be there. This involved death and carnage.
From my Navy enlistment in 1976 - my last job I held in 1994 I worked around loud high pitch machinery and had documented hearing loss. But about age 33 certain noises began to bother me more and more. With the noises sometimes came the Brain Fog experience. The where am I, how did I get here, where was I going, how long ago, what was I doing, type of brain fog. At times I could not even sign my name because I could not get my eyes to read. You know the cartoon with the dog sneaking up behind the cat and barking & the cats response? LOL.
One night at work it all came to a head. I had a service call to check a residents apartment for a noise. I was a maintenance mechanic in a nursing home/retirement center. I went to her apartment and I could not hear any unusual noises. She was crying begging saying please make it stop. I said OK lead me to the noise. She took me to the A/C unit which was operating normal. I turned it off and she was fine. I went to find the nurse and told her. She said yeah she came back from the hospital like that.
I went back to the main building to my shop to eat supper. I was leaning back in a chair and someone behind the door in the hallway yelled at someone down the hall. I about jumped out of my skin then the Brain Fog hit again. I was aware of where I was but could not respond much. I called in a relief maintenance man and left. I retired that night. My work involved Boiler Operations as well and I had no business being there at that point. It was two days before I was fully functional again.
I went to several doctors including a Neurologist all my CT & MRI test were negative. They sent me to a Shrink who labeled me with General Anxiety Disorder. The Soc Sec disability examiners checked me twice and said I could never work again.
I began therapy sessions with a LCSW who specialized in Anxiety Disorders. He diagnosed me as also having PTSD. From 1985 my first wife died age 23, when I met someone else and was dating she became a quadriplegic when we were on a date, we afterward married and my step daughter had a wreck which when I arrived on scene the RS was covering her body still inside the vehicle which was barely recognizable as a car.I knew the on scene paramedic he told me she was trapped and had serious injuries the blanket was for the Jaws of Life. Later that night the surgeon said her knee was shattered and she would not use that leg. {She got it back later}. Ten I was in a wreck where a woman rear ended my Chevy K-5. I got out to check on her and there was a baby in the front seat eyes closed. Her car was totaled BTW. I thought the baby was dead but it slept through it all somehow. My wife over about an 8 year time frame had two close calls in her health. After all that was when things starting coming apart.
So what is the link of PTSD to Hearing Damage aka Vestibular or Cerebellar/Vestibular Damage especially in combat vets? The high decibel level of both firing the rounds and if near impact the explosion.
In the Navy I was a Machinist Mate I worked in area with mainly higher frequency noises. But I did a year stint in the Army National Guards as a 13B in a Howitzer Battery. I was in the Ammo section I drove the Duse and Half and delivered rounds, fuses, and powder to the gun crews then if at night I slept afterward.
I was green to Army culture especially artillery fire. We went to Ft Stewart for our two week training. We went out for about four days and nights to the range. My section delivered the ammo and we went to sleep. I was up in the back sleeping on the seat when the gun crews did a full battery fire mission. We were a 155 unit tracked. I was asleep when the round went off no protection and I was close enough to the guns that my body literally came off the seat. All of this my Navy and Army NG time was before any of the rest of the things that happened had begun. I knew when I was on the ship the Medical Officer placed me on Hearing Conservation then due to hearing loss.
One thing about PTSD many things can trigger it. One guy I knew was triggered by smelling moldy clothing such as a towel etc. He did swamp ops in Central America and had a very bad experience there no one should have to go through. His actions saved his unit but it left a big emotional wound in his mind because of whom he had to shoot.
PTSD is more often not a physical process a thought process which becomes overwhelming such as reliving past traumatic events. Many persons live with it for years even decades and some self medicate themselves rather than seek help due to the stigma of seeing a Therapist for help. LCSW's for PTSD are a godsend a very necessary part of healing much more so than a Shrink.
But for Vets who also experiences very loud noises in combat especially lower frequency ones and are exposed to the shock wave it damages the Inner Ear and the tubing etc. The Inner Ear isn't just about hearing it's also balance and coordination of the persons muscles as well as optics.
When the Cerebellar/Vestibular System is damaged the brains ability to handle multiple task can be significantly decreased. Take a stick of RAM from a computer out and see how many programs you have to do one at a time or limit as an example. It still has the same info, it still can do task and achieve same results as a faster one but must operate slower and not be overtaxed with too many task at once otherwise it freezes up.
Stress can and does make the symptoms of Vestibular Disorders worse and can produce anxiety and Panic Attacks. Actually it is the most likely cause of them. All of the sudden the brain which has been compensating for either the PTSD or the Vestibular Disorder is hit with a second issue. The brain ten like a computer begins to freeze or close programs thus the "Brain Fog" type of episodes. It won't hurt or kill you but if it's the first one you think the worse is happening.
The two issues often exist together and the Mental Health professionals side of it are not looking for or even considering Vestibular Damage. Not doing so and dispensing medications especially antidepressants can have a very bad result.Both must be treated and because it is also Vestibular Damage modifications in therapy is a must. For example Cognitive Behavioral Therapy will not work in this case because it is neurological damage.
How did I learn about the Vestibular side of this? Necessity because the darn Shrinks were giving me pills that made it worse. I found a book written by a Neurologist who specialized in Anxiety Disorders, ADD ADHD, and even Dyslexia. He found a common link in a high percentage of his anxiety and ADD ADHD patients it was triggered by Vestibular Damage.
The two together can be very hard to deal with especially when the doctors aren't even considering it. I found that book about 20 years ago. The shrink ignored it and would not consider it even with my childhood history. The Therapist was skeptical until I challenged him to ask the persons in an anxiety group how many had feet issues? Almost all. Why? Because Vestibular patients walk off balance LOL. The Vestibular issues and the PTSD symptoms can overlap each other and both trigger each other. A Vet with a bad Startle reaction? Yeah they should do a full Vestibular Work Up and medical history related to it all the way back to childhood. I have seizures from it. Jerks or Tremors as some might call them when I hear certain noises. My upper Torso spams violently. If I'm laying down it also hits my vocal chords. The clinical term for them is Myoclonic Seizures.
Oh one last thing I forgot about that old lady who's apartment I went too on a trouble call. She likely had an Inner Ear infection. Inner Ear disorders can distort sound levels. But that woman was one of the things that finally helped me put all the pieces together.
Today? I am at 50% plus hearing loss. I still have the attacks especially if I wear my hearing aids. The PTSD? It took 5 years therapy to be free of it.
I learned a lot about Inner Ear issues too due to my wifes quadriplegia. One of the things a Quad or Paraplegic has to regain first is their Inner ear function. Thus the Tilt Table they use in Physical Therapy.
Oh, I was just trying to make the guys feel better - I still react very sharply to loud and unexpected noises..."You can take the boy out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the boy"!
Semper Fi, 0811
Chainmail: 3531, 0811, 0844, 0846, 0802, 5715, 9900
You know, my mother was a war bride and she didn’t like fireworks either.
But everyone is responsible for their own emotional content.
My whole dang career was one endless stream of loud noises and I have a permanent ring in my left ear from 40 years of explosions, including throwing 155 frag grenades in one afternoon (long story), culminating with firing 700 rounds from a 120mm mortar all by myself. I'm amazed that I can hear anything at all.
I need to examine this further...
Thanks!
I think that there is little comprehension among most us in this country of the effects of sustained combat and the fear that goes with it.
“I believe it is psychological”
No, there is a simpler explanation. PTSD allows them to get a check every month for the rest of their lives. That has a way of enhancing the diagnosis count of PTSD.
Fraud in service disability determination has been a disgraceful part of military separation for a long time. This is its logical extension of that “tradition”
I don’t like fireworks, never have and never will..........
Aren’t you special. No, I never have asked for or received anything at all for whatever effects the “shakes” have had for me. All I get are disability payments for the loss of part of my leg from a gunshot wound.
You resentful civilians can get a bit wearing. What happened to all that terry-eyed stuff on Veteran’s Day?
“You resentful civilians can get a bit wearing.”
I’m a veteran. I got sick of watching all the fraud, and now it’s even worse.
If you’ve got a combat wound - not just hurt feelings - then nobody resents anything. But if you can work you damn well should work, whether you feel like it or not.
If you can’t abide by your neighbors living their life, setting off a few fireworks on the 4th of July then you’ve got an inflated opinion of yourself - veteran or not - and your problem is you, not PTSD.
Whole different ball of wax, I assure you. It means fear, death, killing and daily shocks that bystanders, such as yourself, have no clue to - and that's a good thing I guess, so you can sleep nights peacefully.
I have nothing against fireworks and would never want any socialist idiots banning anything but, yes, they do jar me sometimes. I have memories and reactions you don't.
I worked hard all of my life despite continuous and unrelenting pain from my right leg. The bullet shattered my femur and damaged my knee and the nerves that go through that part of my body. The unequal length of that leg has caused back and hip pain too but I lived with it for close to half a century now. I understand that I was very lucky to have lived through it and to have kept my leg, damaged or not.
I only got a disability at retirement age which I am grateful for but I'm not sure that it's worth the resentment from folks like you.
Unless you have experienced what people like me have gone through, it might be more gentlemanly to keep the hostile thoughts to yourself.
Your problem is you, not any self perceived resentment you feel you are further victimized by.
No American gets to dictate the behavior of another just because he has a self inflated sense of importance for whatever reason.
There are many people, veterans that experienced terrible things. The honorable ones don’t trade on their service for recognition, money, or social status.
The ones with PTSD and are whining about celebrating the 4th of July should be ashamed. When there is a government check involved it seems that shame goes out the window.
Yeah, yeah. And there are some who blame everybody else about everything.
You’re just a walking wad of sullen anger, aren’t you?
Sad.
“Yeah, yeah. And there are some who blame everybody else about everything.”
Yes, agreed. But not you or me, right?
“You’re just a walking wad of sullen anger, aren’t you?”
No, I’m just an American who is going to enjoy fireworks today, and I encourage every other American to do the same - regardless of how it may affect me.
I hope you can too.
Now for PTSD. Here's some things you don't hear talked about. WW2 Vets came back with likely the highest percentage of disability pensions. Their also was based on percentage but no one made them run through a red tape gauntlet. It was called doing the right thing by giving them justified compensation for injuries and disabilities suffered in the line of duty.
Korean War Vets faired close to the same but things changed drastically with Nam because civilians with cushy government jobs began using their official capacity to lash out against the war and what better way than to in their eyes take it out on the vets. WW2 and Korean vets got treated good by society many Nam Vets got shammed for acts our cowardly presidents and congress did.
Now why the increase in PTSD cases? It's really fairly simple. A Korean War Vet and Nam Vet saw a set time that they would be in country {meaning deployed in the nation we were at war with} and rotated home. Typically that was less than a year and a half per enlistment. Enlistment obligation for draftee was four years active duty and when you did that four years you went home and never heard from Uncle again.
Today a twenty year Lifer has likely not served in peace time. Although undeclared by congress our troops have been deployed into combat zones since Gulf War One almost non stop. The Iraqi War vets are seeing much more combat zone time per enlistment than even WW2 Vets saw. Enlistment obligations are eight years now not six. Meaning a typical first time enlistee may see a year or longer deployment to Iraq, returned to the states and in a few months deployed to Afghanistan or they were sent right back to Iraq. Some went as many as four or five times and again I'm talking first enlistment times. Worse was the fact our own government lied about certain things. For example the chemical attacks some were exposed too in Gulf War One.
The human mind can only handle so much carnage in a set amount of time without damage occurring. Each person is different in their own threshold as too what they can handle before PTSD becomes an issue. PTSD is not just a combat related disorder it can hit anyone.
You just don't walk into a Shrinks office, be given a bottle of pills, and be over it. It takes years in therapy to heal and that is if you get help. Pills treat the symptoms not the disorder. PTSD to be cured if a cure can be obtained takes one on one therapy with someone qualified to help the person put the events in the mind where they need to be.
So RF what could you handle? Be honest. Being in a wreck with fatalities and someone dismembered laying beside you? Thank GOD I never had that one. But what about your family? What about seeing your kid severely injured in a wreck and you think the kid died when you get there? How long do you think you would have that on your mind?
Death? One minute you are happily married and kissing your wife good bye as you leave for work. You get to work and suddenly a couple of co-workers come up and say hey you need to call home. They get you down from the roof first then tell you call home. You call home expecting your wife to say something like the car won't start but it's not your wife on the other end. It's a distraught family member who found her dead.
Yes death is a part of living. You go through the hurt and you try and move on. You meet another and get to know the woman. You go on a few dates and start realizing it's deeper than a friendship. Everything's going fine & you start talking about a future together and suddenly out of the blue the person collapses to the floor before your very eyes. You put her in a car and take off for the ER.
On the way there two kids are screaming because their Mom is dieing. The woman is giving you details to you as to what they are seeing. It's Death & the beyond! The process of passing from this world into the next and the person is a healthcare worker knowing what is happening to her and has sat with many dieing patients. But miracles happen you get to the ER on time and the doctor give a 50/50 chance for survival but they can't say what happened because they don't know. Her arms are locked to her chest and if you try to pull them down they fold back up to the chest.
Hours turn into days and days turn into weeks and weeks to months with no answers but some improvements in arms and hands. In the mean time you go back to work. Finally a doctor tells both of you that there is an issue in the spinal cord in the upper C section which controls limb movements from the neck down as well as breathing. Anything below C-5 and some function comes back usually. This was at C-5 & C-6 level. The prognoses if a five year life expectancy. BTW that was by 1985 medical standards and still is true today.
What do you do? Run away? Try to deal with a sudden onset of loss of any feelings for anyone? Pray, then pray many times more? What about the love? What about the life you spoke about together? What about more questions to answer and consider than you'd answer in decades of life? Do you think both persons would have some issues start showing up? Life goes on. Decisions are made and together you decide to put a life back together and work with what you are given.
Fact: most marriages where a spouse becomes seriously disabled have a high failure rate. The uninjured spouse places an unrealistic demand that the other heal themselves and they demand life as before. A MD told us that not a shrink. It was the spinal rehab medical director. We married after the fact and he said we'd likely be OK because the issue of the spouses disability was accepted.
With spinal issues comes health issues. Urinary Tract Infections for a healthy person means some antibiotics. For a spinal cord patient it can mean pneumonia and CHF in a matter of hours. You adjust and go back to work after family is trained to assist in care. Then more life events.
One of your teenage kids calls and is hysterical. She saw her sister in the car in front of her get hit T-Boned and she's not sure if she's alive. You run out the door to get there and seeing whats going on assume the worst because a blanket is covering the body. But although it she is in serious condition they extract her and later that evening the surgeon says she's not going to have use of her leg. You now have two too care for plus your full time job.
The kid is tough and after almost a year is walking on the leg again. Things are looking up. You and your wife take a long weekend away and have a good time. Driving home out of the blue suddenly you have no idea where you are, how you got there, where you were going, how long you'd been there, and you're doing 70 MPH on the interstate. You've worked in medical facilities and seen it all. You say to yourself I'm having a Stroke or this is MS.
Your helpless wife looks over at you and screams what's wrong with you? Although you've done nothing to get her attention. It's on your face. You can muster a Nothing! reply and keep driving. About 25 minutes later things start getting back to normal sorta. Your exhausted though and scared $&%^*&^^.
You shrug it off and go to work the next evening. Only you're weak. You go to the doctor and he can't find anything wrong. You'd been having some problems the past couple months but this is different. After a month you go back to work and then on a family vacation you'd been planning.
On the vacation you have a very, very, close call with two tractor trailers who nearly sandwich you because you had no way out. Yeah I know happens all the time. But before you left on vacation your wife tells you about her nightmare. There was a wreck and we were laying on the interstate. Two weeks later you're back at work and go to a trouble call. It's a large complex so you drive. You stop at a red light because well Duh it's red but the person behind you doesn't. A 78 Chevy K-5 vs a late 80's Honda Accord who won that one? You get out and check on the other person and it's a woman with a baby. You look in the car and the baby isn't moving. Her car is totaled and the kid is in the front seat airbags deployed. You assume the worst then the kid wakes up. But the damage is implanted in your brain.
A week later you go on a routine trouble call about a noise in a residents apartment. Thirty minutes after that you aren't able to function as describe in another post I made on this thread. All of this happened from 1985-1994.
I tried three times to return to work. The Social Security Examiners two different ones said I could never work. There wasn't even a name for it at first because they couldn't separate symptoms as they overlapped. A disabled person may be able to function at home but not in a workplace. That tends to make persons suspicious of the disability thus they say fraud many times without any knowledge of their condition.
Certain noises through out the hearing frequency spectrum can put me into seizures. So can some optical events. Xanax helps control it. It's not all frequencies. Fireworks don't bother me but a car with the sub woofers blaring away that you can hear two blocks away does. The human skull is part of your hearing. That is why the Audiologist places a speaker on your skull when testing. It's like some persons can not tolerate being within a couple miles of a wind turbine due to the noise it makes. Same cause.
Vets who have severe startle reactions to fireworks most likely also have severe Vestibular Damage and they can also have PTSD or have both disorders at the same time. The problem is Mental Health doesn't take into consideration Vestibular Disorders or damage in diagnosing PTSD and it gets overlooked. The Vestibular Damage is the likely culprit but it triggers or compounds the PTSD symptoms and vise versa. It's two conflicting disorders triggering each other. Common Sense says if a large artillery round went off and a Vet was injured he would have Vestibular issues also.
How tough a man are you anyway? What could you endure? Do you believe being tough makes you Immune to PTSD? How much can you handle? What if you managed to finally put the PTSD behind you then when life is going OK all hell breaks loose ll over again. Your sister {only sibling} dies, your aunt dies, your second wife dies, and your best friend dies all within a six week period. That is real life. How tough do you think you are?
I'm likely real soon headed back into therapy. Those events I just posted happened from Feb 24 - March 31 of this year. My sister, my aunt, my second wife, and my longtime Navy Buddy died in that timeframe.
PTSD is very real as real as cancer. it's not a matter of how tough a man or woman you are. It's not something most can ever get over alone. The tendency for many is what is referred to as self medication usually by alcohol sometimes illicit drugs to give a brief reprieve from the beast.
Yes I'm on Social Security Disability. Have been since 1994. BTW I could also probably file with VA on my hearing loss as I do have my service record and medical files as proof. I use VA services for Hearing Aids a cost my insurance won't cover but VA will.
My wife and I combined drew $1500 a month total. I draw $900 she drew $600. When she passed my income became $900 a month. No other supplemental income help available I've tried. Right now I've filed Chapter 13 and made a $280 payment. This is my second bankruptcy the first was 28 years ago Chapter 7 on a six figure hospital bill because her insurance company considered a transfer to a spinal rehab center Located in a hospital as a release and canceled her.
Disability is not the Gold Mine Bonanza many like to say it is. My wife was turned down first time and so was I. Family helped us meet bills but still there were expenses I did not put on the family and I owe $12K. Not a lot for many I suppose but it may as well be $120K to me.
I was a caregiver for 29 years. My body shows it that's just the reality of it. I worked till my body and mind said I could do so no more.
I sure won't question a combat Vets PTSD. A typical enlistee now may see as much as three years plus of their first enlistment deployed in a war zone. Some see five years. A much different war than WW2. This one our enemies wrote the ROE's and the enemy isn't wearing a uniform.
You return fire into an area where artillery or sniper fire is coming from it will most likely take out a lot of civilians. Despite the fact their uncle Mohamad was a soldier hiding among the civilians in civilian clothes and they knew it they will use our lawmakers like the late Dirtbag Murtha to persecute our troops.
Too more serious injuries are now being survived thanks to medical technological advances. But with severe injuries and I consider loss of limb such comes cognitive issues. I question many expenses and excesses of government agencies and their abuses. But I'm damned sick and tired of seeing troops taking the brunt of the blame as the so called abusers and fraudsters.
Civilian Soc Security is a lot easier and SSI real easy. IOW military related disability abuse what very few cases manage to get through is a pinhead in a swimming pool in fraud. IMO the bureaucratic nightmare of hoops & red tape service members have to go through to get justifiable compensation for injuries physical or mental is a disgrace upon this nation.
Despite the last half-century and whatever effects may or may not come, I’ll bring my two little ones (9 and 7) to the local fireworks show and enjoy it with them.
Thanks for the invitation.
Semper Fi,
Chainmail
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