SpikeTV AK47 vs. AR15 Vanity

April 18, 2010 | Me

[goodwithagun]

Informal poll: SpikeTV is showing a Deadliest Warrior rerun. It has the Taliban vs. IRA. The IRA is testing the AR15 against the Taliban with the AK47. I vote for the AK47. I would like to know what you think.

[Lurker]

I got me one of them non-shooting AR's, too:

It do look good just hanging on the wall, though.

[Travis McGee]

I’ll bet that stock just gleams with that “tiger’s eye” effect in different light. Like polished mahogany. It looks like it has that cool prismatic effect. Damn pretty. I love fine wood.

[Travis McGee]

I kick myself for almost all of the guns I ever let go.

(I did trade off a few lemons, I’ll admit. An AMT Backup .380 I don’t miss.)

[Travis McGee]

Get rid of it or you’ll die. You need a 3,000 piston gun to put bullets downrange.

[Lurker]

In the sun the grain moves like a hologram. I did hit it with one coat of walnut stain, just to bring it up a bit. If you ever get yourself one of those Springfields I highly recommend Fred.

Then I glass bedded it. It's wicked accurate out to 500 which is the longest I've been able to work with it. But I have no doubt that it's a no shit 1,000 yard rifle.

[mamelukesabre]

Where’s your gas piston military M4s then?? They don’t exist. Because its pure bunk.

But this is a completely different subject. With or without the gas piston, AR upper receivers are superior. The piston is just an add-on. The basic design of the upper receiver is more or less unchanged.

[CodeToad]

“dilletante”

Yep. In the words of a mentor, “Anyone who thinks the M-16 platform sucks, well, back your ass 500 meters down range; I’ll mudpit this rifle, swab it with pig shit, and pour a bucket of sand through it...then take one, just one, shot through its iron sights at ya. You’ll put your ass where your mouth is, right?”

[Knitebane]

You weren’t there, neither was I. Where were you? What’s your military background, to be so sure ARs won’t shoot?

I did eight years in the canoe club, if it matters.

Look, you want to make this about me, fine.

Or you can go READ the report yourself.

[Still Thinking]

I have no idea what an FN model 49 goes for today. I remember back when I was 16 which was around 1963, I tried to order one from JC Penney.

I think I'm gonna cry now.

[CodeToad]

“with a gas piston”

As Travis has already pointed out, that gas piston cycling leads to a major recoil affect with a bump in the sight picture the AK suffers from. The AR platform is smooth shot from shot and leads to very quick follow up shots. I know of no gas tub failures such as that a piston is needed. That gas tube unlocks the bolt every time and no piston would do better.

[Travis McGee]

The requested document does not exist on this server.

---

Okay

So what’s the canoe club? The USN? Pretty big club. Were you a steward? Bos’n? Captain of an aircraft carrier?

[CodeToad]

“Or you can go READ the report yourself.”

That’s the problem with people, they think reading something outweights doing something; like a yuppie metrosexual who thinks he knows what his wife is going through during delivery labor with a child because he read a book about it.

[Still Thinking]

World of difference between 100yds and 600yds. The 7.62x39 max powder load MV isn't enough to get a 125gr. bullet out to 600yds with any degree of accuracy. At 100yds fine, a lot of lead on target with a medium amount of ft/lbs of energy.

7.62 Commie is roughly equivalent to a 30-30. Anything you wouldn't try to do with a 30-30 you shouldn't try to do with an AK. And yes, 308 is a big step in the right direction.

[Travis McGee]

This is a Springfield Armory that went through their custom shop, fancy barrel, etc. Belongs to a buddy my age who is still a contractor.

Another buddy is shooting it while I took this picture. We were dinging 20" steel plates on yonder mountains near Las Vegas. You can't do this in Florida!

[hiredhand]

I wouldn't have an AR-10. :-) I don't like the recoil for one thing...and it seems like an overgrown AR. :-) We've been assisting SF soldiers with Robin Sage and I was talking to one of their weapons specialists the other week. He asked me what I thought about the SCAR and I told him I hadn't had my hands on one... perhaps he'd like to help me?! :-) He said he hadn't tried one out yet either. During the course of the conversation he pointed out something I simply never thought of. First off... their entire (active duty) training cadre was comprised of SF soldiers all of whom had been in Iraq for multiple tours. They "generally" like the M-4, but this guy pointed out something specific. He pointed out that DIGs is never the first point of failure on the AR platform. In fact, the gas system is rarely the first point of failure on ANY gas operated firearm. He pointed out that it's usually the barrel that gets hot and causes problems first... or degraded ammo that causes extraction/feeding problems. He said that if he were going to spend money on something...anything that it would be a method or design that simply kept the barrel cooler, or helped it dissipate heat better, and therefore kept the weapon cooler. He also mentioned that heat all by itself (under normal use) wasn't so big a deal, but combined with sand and dust it can cause FTF (failure to feed).

It's a fact that the AK will feed and operate (nearly) full of dirt. It's a lot more forgiving! It's also a fact that most marksman stand little chance of hitting what they're aiming for at 600 yards. Not so with the .223 Rem...5.56mm NATO...whatever you want to call it. :-) It's got enough reach to make somebody very, very unhappy at 600 to 800 yards (20" bbl model). The 7.62x39 Russian won't compete from a purist standpoint for a number of reasons. One is because of the stock bullet design. It's terrible!...It's too light (for a 30 caliber) and too short, and has a ballistic coefficient of .3 or less. Then again, the PBR (Point Blank Range) for both 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO are very close to being identical!

What a lot of people don't think about though is ammo... everybody buys cheap Soviet design/made weapons and touts their ruggedness and dependability. Lord knows we had a bunch before that fishing accident! :-) But what (slightly) concerns me is ammo availability. Even IF we were to gain a major 7.62x39 manufacturer here in the U.S., the Soviet 7.62mm is a LOT different than our 7.62mm! Our 7.62 is .308" in diameter. Their 7.62mm is .311"! So in a pinch, they could use our projectiles, but we can't use theirs! So much for interchangeability of reloading components! :-)

I don't favor center fire .22s, but the U.S. had one thing right with the 5.56... and that's IF you're going to use a center fire .22, make sure it's going as fast as the platform will afford! :-) I personally think they should have DITCHED the AR and gone originally with Stoner's AR-180. :-)

If not for that fishing accident we would have upgraded all of our ARs to gas piston. :-) Right now though, there are several kits for doing it and nobody has a standard. It's not like bolt cam pins, bolts, and bolt carriers. :-) THOSE are generally interchangeable and manufactured to spec. When piston driven gas systems are all the same for ARs, that will be a good thing. :-)

Down under it all, you know I'm a .308 bigot. :-) I consider the AR a Pop-Gun, but useful all the same. :-) What I really like about it is that my girls can grab theirs (before that fishing accident of course :-), and a spare 30 rd magazine and it's light enough for them to use, and they aren't afraid of the recoil.

Think about it... a pissed off, or frightened female WITH a rifle that fires a cartridge having a point blank range of nearly 300 yards, and she's got 60 rounds of ammo with her!...maybe more! WHO in their right mind wants to be near THAT?! I would have rather they had .308s (before the accident! :-), but those are simply too heavy for them. :-)

I used rough numbers in my previous posting, but I went out and got the specs on SS-109 and corrected for it. The point blank range is only 228 yards for that round... 62gr...MV of 3100FPS...zero at 100 yds means hold over 26" at 400. It's got a little more drop than 55gr FMJ 5.56, but should shoot flatter...and it transfers a little more energy. I thought it would do better than that personally! :-)

The 7.62x39 has a PBR of "about" 180 yards, but zeroed at 100 requires a 57" hold over at 400, and it delivers a lot less energy than the 5.56mm at that distance... but their point blank ranges and energy transfer are about the same.

Outside of PBR though is the real killer for the 7.62x39. 57" at 400 yards leaves a lot of room to miss!...not to mention that little short bullet is losing steam fast! Mid-range trajectory on the 7.62x39 "appears" to be about 400 yards... 5.56mm "appears" to be between 600 and 650 or so.

Even after writing all that, I'd NEVER part with my Russian designed weapons... er...that is if I hadn't already lost them in the fishing accident. :-)

[Knitebane]

he requested document does not exist on this server.

Bleh.

Looks like FR's redirect function is taking the night off.

Here, paste this into a URL bar...

www.battlefieldtourist.com/content/battle-of-wanat-historical-analysis-rough-draft-release/

While you're at it, here's an article interviewing a U.S. Army Ranger that experience similar malfunctions. Note: For his actions in the described article, Capt. Nate Self was awarded the Silver Star.

www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

[Knitebane]

As Travis has already pointed out, that gas piston cycling leads to a major recoil affect with a bump in the sight picture the AK suffers from.

Somehow HK figured it out. SOCOM seems to like the 416, which is not much more than an M4 with a gas piston.

[Blackhawk]

9” would qualify as a man sized target. If you have the whole man as the target. A 9” group means 4.5” random error. What if your target is only available through a 4 inch hold in a wall. That means a less than 50% chance of making the shot and 100% chance of giving away your position. All I'm saying is that each weapon has a purpose. Even though an individual weapon may be used for other purposes it will not perform as well. An urban assault weapon does not a sniper rifle make. Nor would I want to lug my Tactical Heavy Barrel around in a urban fight. Useless around corners and ranges under 500yds. So I try to find a balance. Something for AT&T (Reach out and touch) Medium range rapid suppression fire. Medium range rapid “pest” control. Close range personal protection with knock down. Couple of 9’s and an assortment of edged items for a surprise last line of defense.

[Squantos]

We had such flyaway pallets ready to go........aside from carry on off rucks and duffles built up for specific regions and missions. As you state we had few people and multi-million dollar budget for our tools of the trade.

Over my 21 years active duty and 6 .5 years reserve I carried every type of XM177 / GAU/5/5A, M4 Carbine, M2 Carbine, Bushmaster 221 Fireball, M16, MP5 Series, M1A, M60, M79,M148, M203, Mk 19, Ma Deuce M2, M82A1 and even yer nifty Hk 21/23 your spewing lead with in the pics above.

ALL OF EM JAM if the weapon is not maintained properly or the ammo, belts and or magazines are not inspected at every opportunity.

The rifle in reach right now is a M4gery Bushmaster with an ANPVS-14 and a Aimpoint Comp M with Killflash, a Surefire M900 with an IR flip off cover, a redi mag and a stock mag pouch carrying a total of 91 rounds of SS109 in / on the weapon.

Same rig I shoot 3 gun with in retirement every other weekend. It gets a workout with close to 400 rounds as I shoot prior to the match and after the match ....never cleaning the rifle until after the match if at all. I shot 4 matches without cleaning the weapon as an “training/ peace time” experiment.....about 2000 rounds of black hills 69gr ball without a burp.

That is a civilian Bushmaster M4gery rig I use for sport and home defense. Granted it rides in a pelican case vs getting thrown in an out of and on nasty places like active duty troops do at times. Yet it is 100% reliable if cared for .

I’ve melted barrels on old 3 prong (wait a minute vine grabber) flash hiders just to see if it could be done when we had ammo lots to destroy on our range. I have zero issues with the AR system.

That said I carry a M1A as a truck gun just because I live and work on the open range where you can see weather coming tomorrow. So the extra range of my M1A makes rolling a coyote easier.

I think the mistake the DOD makes is trying to issue ONE primary weapon for a multi-use role. If yer going to urban or dense terrain go with a M4. Your going mountain or desert go M1A or SR-25 series.

Desert Storm I carried my issue Scoped M1A we used for SMUD missions. Running around the towns and dirt roads of south an central america I carried a MP5SDA3......

Small teams are better geared to such a selection ability of course and doing such with an infantry division would be tough no doubt. Yet such has to be done IMO. Select a M4 & a SR-25 platform as the either or........simple solution.

One more point .....our M60’s used to be crap. Runaways, fail to fire etc so we took a personal approach to fix what we had. determined that the rivets on the receivers we shit, found a armorers jig to align em perfect at after careful heating tack welded em. Op rods were swapped out for those with a dual sear notch and ceramic coatings. Also coated the trigger group with same ceramic coating.

Yeah our armorers had a shit fit and tried to get us hosed but we prevailed and lots of the improvements were incorporated force wide to the best of my knowledge.

If one thing should be said......take care of your tools and they will serve you well.

[hiredhand]

I forgot to mention...have you SEEN the prices on the piston kits for the AR?! Sheesh...