Posted on 12/17/2011 9:34:30 AM PST by rabidralph
I am looking to buy a rifle that would serve two purposes: primarily a long-distance shooter and secondarily a larger game taker downer :-)
I like to shoot beyond 600 yards and I want a rifle to suit that purpose. From info I've gathered, I should get a larger-calibered rifle, with at least a 24" barrel. I would like to keep the rifle below 10lbs because I also want to hunt with it some day. I am interested in hunting elk and moose, eventually. So I am thinking of a .308.
I get at least four loads from the federal brass, it is very good quality. I could probably squeeze more out, but 4 is good. Using the same lot, the brass is very close to perfect between cases. With care can keep the muzzle velocity at 2600 fps + - 10 consistantly.
Right now, the sun is out, and it is a waste if I don't go out and put at least 50 -100 miles on the MC.
Well, you almost got it right. One MOA at 600 yards is a group within a circle of 6.23”. Not a radius.
+/- 10fps is very, very good. I’ve only heard of guys getting down to +/- 8 as the very best.
Back when mil surp 5.56 Lake City was dirt cheap I picked up a few thousand rounds of green tip because I wanted the brass. From what I’ve read the Military demands some tight tolerances on it.
Yea, it’s a pain to knock that primer crimp out. But can you tell me if my information is correct or not? Thanks.
What, the tolerances? Dunno what the tolerances are. I’ve heard all manner of things, much of it non-verifiable. I might have a chance in the near future to pose this question to a guy who used to be a gunsmith for the US AMU and I’ll ask him about LC tolerances.
I doubt that they’re as tight as Lapua or Norma, but then you’re paying oh-so-much less for it. I’m sure the snipers and long-range shooters are getting special brass. They’re not using off-the-rack rifles, why would they feed a hand-built rifle with mass-production ammo?
That said, I’ve never had a bad batch of LC brass. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but whenever I can get LC brass cheaply, I get it. My wife asks “Have you used up all of the old brass?”
“Why no, dear...”
“Well, why do you need more?”
“Because. Just because.”
“sigh.” (and you know what THAT means...)
Never had a complaint other than “I can’t get it as cheaply as I used to!” (the common wailing refrain of shooters these days). I’ve never exhaustively weighed LC brass because once I got done prepping it, it always worked well for me. I worry first about the weight of charges and bullets, then the size of the flash holes. I’ll still turn the necks on all of them to make sure the bullet is concentric with the bore. Weighing cases isn’t high on my priority list, frankly. It certainly hurts nothing to do it, but IMO, my first worry in cases is whether they’re in good condition, whether they show signs of impending case failure (that bright ring forward of the rear extraction groove), whether the primer pocket will hold a primer, etc.
Can’t say that I’ve noticed anything better or worse in LC brass in that department. It does seem to be longer-lived brass if you don’t hot-rock it and anneal the case necks every third loading, from my experience. You can see where the LC boys did this in factory brass - see that “stain” from the shoulder to the mouth? That’s where the brass was annealed at the factory during the necking-down stage of brass formation.
That said, NB that the LC NATO brass is a bit thicker and if you charge the round to the same level as commercial .223 brass, the smaller case capacity of the 5.56 LC brass will result in higher pressures. As always, start low, work up. Don’t start with the max charge in the reloading manual, but you know that already.
Also NB that the leade on 5.56 chambers allows for more freebore than in SAAMI .223 chambers (by something like 0.083” if memory serves). Ergo, putting 5.56 NATO-spec ammo (especially with heavier) into a SAAMI chamber “could” result in the bullet being pushed into the lands from the get-go, which can result in very high pressures, whereas putting SAAMI .223 ammo into a 5.56 chamber just results in larger freebore and possible loss of accuracy.
>>...Yes, I’ve been on FR since 2000 and I’m a troll. LOL!...<<
My point still stands: your post (as I said - and you ignored) was naive enough to be suspect as a troll. If the shoe fits, it don’t matter how long you’ve been a member. Your responses will tend to verify if you were trolling or not. All *I* said was it sure smelled trollish. By all means, prove me wrong.
Just remembered and checked my notes: The case capacity issue is mostly for 7.62 LC brass. It’s almost a non-issue for 5.56 LC brass, from my notes. Like, oh, less than 0.3 gr diff between SAMMI cases and LC cases in 5.56/.223. I’d still start low and work up, of course.
In .308/7.62 — there’s a bit more that needs to be taken into account.
Sadly, I have very little -06 LC brass. Seems as tho none of the old timers I shoot with will part with it. They open a bolt and they move pretty quick for 75+ years old when jumping after their brass.
>>...Excuse me but your reply to rabidralph shows that you are the naive one. 30-06 and 308 have been dropping Elk and Moose for years...<<
You’re excused! And I wouldn’t put the 30-06 in the same terminal-ballistic class as the 308. I’d also wager those hunters were *quite* experienced, competent stalkers and/or ambushers who made their shots count. Or else they didn’t give a hoot how long their blood-trails were or if they recovered what they shot.
>>...CAN I CALL ‘EM OR NOT?! WHAT DID I SAY? ...<<
Well, I merely said he was suspicious. His reply(s) would tend to confirm that suspicion or not. There’s nothing between him and that confirmation but air and opportunity. But, the *MOST* important thing is that you’ve found something that makes you feel good about yourself! Isn’t it? Glad to help!
Really well done!
By the way, here’s a good intro to exterior (in flight) bullet ballistics for you, including some mathematically background on the subject:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm
One of the things I like to point new hunters to is the “point blank range” comparison in this article between the .300WM and the .308:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/35.cfm
See how little difference there is in the real world, on a real animal (eg, deer)?
The deer won’t know the difference. Your wallet, however, will.
yeah, + / - 10 is good. zero is what we stive for.
Each case is weighed, each charge is weighed, each final cartridge is measured for exact seating and length. The bullet tips are smoked with candle to allow for marks at the throat of the barrel, to see exactly how far they can be seated and just touch the lands and grooves. The cartridges loaded and chambered one at a time, to prevent rattling in the magazine during recoil, which may cause them to be shortened, and therefore have to jump from the chamber to the rifling at an unpredictable distance. I am not decided if hand priming or bench priming is better, as both show fair results. Have realized the powder charge variation is less of an impact than the weight of the case and the total length of the cartridge.
.Cold barrel shots only (unless competition at sanctionbed matches of ten shot strings).
All together, it is a thrill to launch a projectile, and have it hit what was being looked at at the moment the lock mechanism fired.
I think men, and some women, have it in their dna to launch projectiles, weather a rock, a catapult, a mortar, artillery round or a rocket, and have it hit the intended target.
ps, Merry christmas to you and yours.
Thanks so much. We all did enjoy it.
Thanks! That will be a big help. I was at Nosler looking up their load info and trying to get a handle on some things. I appreciate your help.
Thank you. That is fascinating. Makes me more satisfied with my old 30.06. This is exactly the sort of fabulous information I love to get on FR when someone starts a thread like this.
Good point on the .300 vs. .308.
I enjoyed reading your journal of your training classes. Very intense instruction. Not to mention all the variables you have to confront and overcome with equipment and weather and just being human. Thanks for posting.
A friend of mine and I got access to the local FBI range a while back and volunteered to “clean up” after. We grabbed every 5.56, 7.62, and .40 cal case we could lay our hands on.
We had to clean them in a small rented cement mixer. LOL
I think we got the better end of that deal.
I wouldn’t put the 06 in the same class as the .308 either, it is a much better round, higher velocity, less efficient maybe, but a better round altogether. As for people who know how to hunt and shoot, killing an Elk or Moose with a 30 caliber, such as the .308 and the 06, is no big deal. As a matter of fact, year after year people kill Elk with .50 caliber muzzle loaders, a round far less lethal than either the 06 or .308. The 30-30 is also capable as long as the ranges are short. As for Naive, you still take the prize, and add a little dumbsh** in there also.
What I found most striking: it wasn’t that hard. Six focused days, 500 rounds, just work the basics. Rod Ryan & co avoided the popular distractions, walked students thru the steps, and thousand-yard shots just happen.
BTW: another FReeper was one of my instructors, memorable because he cured me of a bad shooting habit by threatening to beat me with a rock. It worked because he indeed looked like he sincerely would if I screwed up again.
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