Ahahaahaahaa!!! Yeah, good luck with that! I'm sure ObamaCare will be repealed first thing in 2017. Ahaha!
Posted on 01/20/2013 2:01:28 PM PST by JohnPDuncan
Your non-response is more than telling. You really couldn't come up with anything better than, "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you."?
You'd think after 10 years you'd have a response by now.
Perpetual war on behalf of kleptocrats like Karzai is not conservatism.
I'm pretty sure the Founders would look at our decade long wars overseas as the ill-conceived adventures they are.
There was a time when your reasoning made sense. People rallied year after year behind this fight-em-there-not-here banner. Those days are over. It's time to admit that we've been sold out. Bush seemed to mean well, but he failed. Obama never cared in the first place. 10 years and trillions of dollars and all we have to show for it is a soon to be nuclear Iran, Islamist governments spreading across the region and America withdrawing. Politically speaking, once we pull out of Afghanistan in 2014, within a year no sign will remain that we were ever there.
The average American has zero interest in anything more than kinder, gentler wars with ironclad ROEs. Glorified terrorist-hunting safaris, not wars. Our current model of warfare absolutely cannot stop Islamic militancy or Islamist political ascendancy. We can't change that fact, because the American people don't want real war. All we can do in this political climate is throw money and lives away in the name of 'doing something'.
Even that will soon prove to be politically unpalatable. Republican support for these pretend wars helped destroy the party and hand Obama both terms. So long as the GOP appears eager for more Iraqs and Afghanistans, it will remain out of power.
That's the hard truth. It's time to get clear eyed about it.
Agreed completely.
Americans and American companies are targets of Radical Islam through out the world. They are going to kill us and the nation will perish or we are going to kill them and the nation will survive. I can tell you for a fact that the countries of the world are picking sides and they are not picking the USA...
You did in 2012.
Only liberals vote for liberals. Thank heavens there were more voters in America who reject liberalism, and Romney lost.
I feared Romney was going to win in a landslide because I underestimated the number of conservative (not necessarily Republican) Americans who felt the same way I did about Romney. I believe also that if votes had been tallied honestly, he would be our president today. He LOST, because most of the most sensible FReepers here were correct: He was a loser, with zero chance of winning against the stacked deck of vote manipulation and fraud. We Americans and conservatives have a better chance of gaining ground toward recovering freedom with Obama in office. Romney would have done more damage than Obama in the long run.
God is on our side.
Oh my, Leni,
You seem to think (#70) that the GOP should get out of their
bubble, cancel their joint cruises, forget the country club
and become Conservatives? What are you drinking these daze?
You know how easy it is to just go-along (re-elected) to get stuff,don’t you? s/
Ahahaahaahaa!!! Yeah, good luck with that! I'm sure ObamaCare will be repealed first thing in 2017. Ahaha!
I am one of those “Libertarian Republicans” that many of you think is all evil and want to rid the GOP of “real” conservatives. That is bunk, and I will do my best to explain why.
First, I am a Navy vet so the last thing I am is soft on defense. Ron Paul is crazier than a rat in a tin $hit house when it comes to defense. I realize that we must protect our interests globally, this is not 1820.
What is a “real” conservative? The last time I checked a “real” conservative would have a huge problem with the government running people’s lives. This is why gay marriage and abortion are such issues. I am not in favor of either, but I damn sure am not in favor of the Feds dictating the actions of people either. Leave those issues to the states and locals.
On this site many complain about how the liberals claim that paying taxes to support the “needy” is a form of charity and as Christians we should not be so loathe to do so. Conservatives correctly argue that it is not charity if one is forced to give by the barrel of a gun. The same applies to legislating morality. Are we being moral by not performing or favoring gay marriage or abortion because the federal government does not allow it? The same principle applies, so no we are not being moral. The GOP is seen as being hypocritical by many in the electorate because of this. we all know those things are wrong, but what matters is what is in a person’s heart, and that cannot be legislated on any level, so why compromise our limited government principles trying?
So, when it proposed that the GOP let social issues go on a national level, think again as to why this may be a palatable idea. As of right now, cultural issues are not winning over voters. There are many reasons for this. But, if we want to fix the GOP brand I am of the belief that what we need to do is declare that the GOP still opposes these issues, but is not interested in having the federal government do so. That they should be left to the states. The GOP should truly push a very limited government at the federal level and encourage voters to handle social issues at local levels.
An example of how correct you are -- the homosexual agenda, which I as a Christian abhor and consider depraved, though I have over the years had and loved dearly many homosexual friends of both sexes. Right now, the government deems it "moral" to force everyone to embrace open homosexuality by PUNISHING THEM if they simply, peacefully, lovingly, turn away and tell the open homosexual to go somewhere else for this job, this service, this apartment to rent, this adoption of a child, this homosexual-propagandizing program aimed at children in public schools. Social conservatives are STUPID to think the Federal government should do anything BUT protect the God-given right of Americans to peacefully reject and discriminate against open homosexuality in their personal, business, social, and community life.
Instead, what do "social conservatives" want to do -- use hamfisted Federal government just as stupidly in the other direction, to punish openly homosexual people? For what? For sinning? That's not the government's job. That's GOD's job and that is the job of moral, free individuals in the societies where those homosexuals live. Those moral, free individuals promote moral societies by ostracizing -- peacefully, even lovingly -- the sinner's behavior in their communities.
The Federal government has zero business in overseeing the morality of Americans. If it instead made its business to protect the rights of Americans to LIVE MORALLY, social conservatives would see much more success in the creation of a more moral culture in America.
Nonsense. I have never heard a social conservative want to use the Federal Government to “punish” homos. What we do not want is the goverment rewarding them for their sexual deviance.
Exactly, what “punishment” have you seen being called for.
“This is a fascinating argument. I have to give you points for creativity. Can you give me another example of a law that I am legally required to abide by that predates the Constitution, but is not contained therein?”
That’s a good question. Contracts and property law, stuff like that. We’re talking some of the more basic principles that are usually taken for granted because ‘they’ve always been there’. Well, they aren’t ‘always there’. Consanginuity laws, that’s another.
“It’s likely they did accept the definition, however since they left it out of the Constitution entirely, it looks like it falls under many of the vast powers under the 9th and 10th Amendment.”
Then why didn’t Reynolds make that argument? Reynolds didn’t make that argument. Reynolds goes back and explicitly cites the English Common law, establishing the definition of marriage within the United States, and then goes and makes the jurisdictional argument, that the United States federal government has an obligation to protect the Common law. It then goes and explicitly negates the argument that Utah can set up their own law to change the definition of marriage.
See, that’s the thing. To understand how law was understood to work back then - you look at the arguments! You look at what Reynolds said, and why - the statutes that Reynolds cites, the previous examples, and all of them are from the English common law. Every single one. That to me indicates that they believed this was the basis of this law in the United States, and that they believed these arguments were compelling.
“It DOES NOT make requirements on the individual states on how they recognize a marital contract within.”
Within the definition, it does. It explicitly bars changes in that definition away from one man and one woman, barring both polygamy (as in Reynolds), and gay marriage. You’re right that states do issue marriage licenses, and the federal government recognizes them insofar as the licenses meet the requirements of the law. If they fall outside - then they aren’t legally recognized marriages and no entity is required to treat them as such. States may attempt to impose these requirements on people as we are seeing now, but they are illegal and contrary to federal law.
“So yes, they can change the definition, it just may not be recognized by other states or the federal government itself”
Which means that it’s not a legal marriage. If it were a legal marriage, everyone within the US would be bound to recognise it per the FF+C clause.
“Once again, federal control gets you next to nothing.”
Why is it relevant, “what the law gets me?” What is relevant is what the law is. And the federal government has the authority to enforce the law - they do not have the authority to redefine the law. Nor do the states. Nor does anyone. That’s the point. Any redefinition is contrary to the Common Law, and unless you want to go away from that model (IE, sharia), it’s a non-starter.
This is why I state that progressives have the exact same goal as sharia, to remove the underpinnings of American jurisprudence. The sooner conservatives recognise this, the better off we will be in understanding what their goals are and why. The left sees this stuff quite well- they also believe that nobody else does, which is why they can push it with impunity and get what they want. And they are mostly correct.
“Oh really? So we need state permission and endorsement for marriage? Wow, this is conservatism?”
Yes, you do. If all are recognised than none, effectively are. There needs to be a federal standard of marriage.
“There’s no marriage unless Daddy Government says so?”
No, there isn’t. Again - this goes back to the crux of it. Marriage is a public good. Always has been. It’s not a private affair. You don’t get married in private - legally it requires witnesses. It requires a public record and anyone can find out whether or not you were married, to whom and to when. There is not ‘expectation of privacy’ with respect to marriage - it just doesn’t work that way.
“I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what the Federal Government says about marriage”
The law cares. Are conservatives against respect for the law?
“If we had a true Constitutional Republic, it wouldn’t matter whether you were married”
It should matter, otherwise, what purpose is there to getting married? The law should recognise marriage, and the laws are there for a reason.
“The best idea is to keep the government as far away from marriage as possible. The ideal role would extend to honoring a contract and setting terms for dissolving it, and that’s it.”
But you’re insisting that the government step in to enforce a contract when it is convenient to you, and leave you alone when it does not. If you expect the government to enforce the marriage contract with respect to divorce laws, then you have no argument anymore.
Again, you are free to call your relationships whatever you want - you can argue you are married. You are free to set up whatever contract you desire privately - but you cannot insist on state enforcement of your private contract wrt marriage along with the divorce laws.
Not even the mighty British Empire could “destroy” America, what makes you think idiots in mountains with AK’s can? Are you really that scared of them?
You wrote:
Let me guess, dope supporter, gay marriage supporter, abortion supporter.
How is support for abortion ‘libertarian?’ You’re killing people who would otherwise exist.
I assumed you were talking about me. If so, you were wrong.
“Not even the mighty British Empire could “destroy” America, what makes you think idiots in mountains with AK’s can?”
The “Mighty British” are the ones who were destroyed... by the “idiots” in the mountains with weapons!
If you doubt me, ask the North Vietnamese, or the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan if it can be done.
First, thank you for your service. I’ll take these one at a time...
“First, I am a Navy vet so the last thing I am is soft on defense. Ron Paul is crazier than a rat in a tin $hit house when it comes to defense. I realize that we must protect our interests globally, this is not 1820.”
I agree on Paul and on defense.
“What is a “real” conservative? The last time I checked a “real” conservative would have a huge problem with the government running people’s lives. This is why gay marriage and abortion are such issues. I am not in favor of either, but I damn sure am not in favor of the Feds dictating the actions of people either. Leave those issues to the states and locals.”
All well and good. But as soon as you abandon this on the fed level, the Dems are then fully in control of WANTING to dictate fed policy to force their version of reality. The end result is codified homosexuality. Fed law is then used to trump state law. See immigration/border control for the result of ceding federal ground to libs. See also the hell that was wrought to the west and many parts of the east over landuse issues. The problem is that libs do not follow any rules.laws but their own. The refusal to accept that is perhaps the primary reason why our side loses.
In a perfect world, I agree with you. But we are not in that world. If one wants to hasten lib takeover, one need simply give an inch. Then another. Then another ad infinitum.
And I would say a ‘real conservative’ stands for the ‘life’ portion of ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ first and foremost. Abortion is about life. State, fed, county and local. A pregnant woman is 2 people. The child cannot speak for or defend him/herself. a ‘real conservative’ does not believe that killing a baby in one state is acceptable if the people vote it so. The Constitution enshrines the right to life.
As for the homosexuals, this became an issue on the fed level when libs started pushing the idea of sex practice as ‘legal right’ and with legal benefit. I’d go as far as to say that in a vacuum, the majority of conservatives really don’t care who is zoomin’ who or how they are doing it. But we are not in a vacuum. Again, the problem becomes federal because of the interstate legalities. And again, this goes back to Dems codifying something that makes no sense to begin with.
This argument that ‘it’s not a fed issue’ has all the hallmarks of a political party that wants to go along with the lib line, but wants to have it both ways. They are tired of the facade that they oppose abortion and homomarriage but don’t want to give up the votes of the conservative base.
The 12 election proved what happens to Republicans who go lib. But they will keep doing it until enough of us ‘old guard’ (and I’m only 47) die off and get their way by attrition. Problem is that they just can’t wait. So their argument then appeals to our sense of constitutionality. Too bad that ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’, along with numerous amendments directly counter the rationale for caving on abortion and other ‘social issues best left to the states’.
The Constitution itself IS a social issue.
If life itself, the ultimate reason for a constitution to begin with, is best left to the states, why even HAVE a federal govt?
“...but what matters is what is in a person’s heart, and that cannot be legislated on any level, so why compromise our limited government principles trying?”
Why then legislatively ban pedophillia? Murder? Beastiality?
“So, when it proposed that the GOP let social issues go on a national level, think again as to why this may be a palatable idea. As of right now, cultural issues are not winning over voters.”
So your entire argument, as others here have done, comes down to ...
“Be abandoning what we believe in as conservatives, our very principles, to ‘win’”.
Give up on abortion to get votes and ‘win’
Give up gay marriage to get votes and ‘win’
Because when you reduce your argument to it’s core, that is EXACTLY what it means. And if you consider that a conservative POV, then your mindset is every bit the problem conservatism is currently facing.
“idiots in mountains with AK’s”
You are uninformed as to the threat, which is not unusual as most in the country cannot grasp what is going on in the rest of the world...
The only adaption they need is the one where the testicles drop into a sack. A1
Many live under the fantasy that someone can simply snap their fingers and Politi-Christ will appear to transition the country back to a rational course. They expect it to be pain-free and at no personal cost to themselves.
We see it in ‘businessmen’ who are willing to cater to illegals while bitching about border control. We see it with ‘pro-lifers’ willing to abandon the national fight for votes. We see it in ‘conservatives’ willing to trash conservatives in order to ‘win’ with a moderate.
People, over decades created this mess by voting for ‘moderates’ in the GOP. Extraction is going to hurt. A lot. And putting starting the process by defending/continuing the method by which we got here guarantees one thing.
More pain.
Edit: Putting -OFF- starting the process...
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