Posted on 04/23/2015 9:19:01 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
This is the bottom line (pun intended) and the most persuasive of your arguments. Try a dialectic approach, though not necessarily Socratic in style. You may get better results. I stress may.
If you were being honest about it, you wouldn't include games where he wasn't the starter.
His TD to INT ratio isn’t that good.
Actually it's very good, as in above average. His passer rating is about average and is better than some QB's in the HOF.
The facts are in. He is not a good QB. Period. The Tebow cultists need to internalize that.
Sure. If twisting his stats around doesn't work, then start calling names.
If you don’t mind, would you give me a thumbnail sketch of the dialectic approach?
I understand Socratic, as I had to practice it as a parent.
Anyway, I admit I should have stayed a bit higher above the fray than I did, which was my mistake.
I’ve long puzzled over why Tim Tebow had trouble staying in the NFL. I discarded Tim’s open Christianity as the reason for Tim’s lack of staying power, just as I discarded his ability or lack thereof. Too many QB’s in the league have skills that are as marginal as Tim Tebows.
This is why I settled on the offensive problems created by having a run-option QB backed up by a drop back QB.
Which then lead me to the idea that the backup QB needs to able to run the existing offense when, not if, the starting QB goes down.
Then things more sense.
In this instance, “truth” is derived through conjecture insofar as there is no NFL by-law regarding what constitutes competency at the QB position. Your adversary is implementing that “fact” and its intrinsic subjectivity by way emotional (or impulsive) argumentation. In English, he is trying to baffle with bullshit. He utilizes passion to “prove” his conviction. He is after the “win” (eristic argumentation), not the “truth” (whatever that may be).
You, on the other hand, were employing rational argumentation. The two forms are in fundamental conflict. Socratic resolution, while dialectic, is a response form that is poorly suited for internet chat.
An alternate form would be to isolate a few seminal actualities that are preponderant in their influence. Present them as such., and then argue the preponderant nature as being the best representation of a “truth” that is – ultimately – deniable, yet more substantive than his alternatives.
Without going back through the thread to verify, I think you actually started to do that when you stated “The NFL, for better or worse, is what it is, a money making business.” – but got redirected for other reasons – resulting in your argument becoming frustrated. Had you repositioned the basis of your argument to “relative” nature of the "truth” in question and cornered your quarry on that basis, you MAY have had success in achieving a limited concession. Which is all you could have hoped for, given the eristic purposes of your opponent.
You’re including all of his TD some of which came when he wasn’t a starter. If you want to limit things to just when he was a starter then it’s 12TD and 6INTs couple with 6FUM which makes his TDs = his turnovers which pretty much puts the end to any idea that he protected the ball.
It get’s worse if you’re going for just his starter time.
I’m not the one twisting his stats. And you are acting like a cultist, which is more of a label than a name call.
Thank you for the information.
I honestly am not that invested in the NFL which I think gives me a certain amount of objectivity.
More twisting of stats by you. If you are gong to include fumbles, then you should include rushing TD’s, which were incredible for a QB.
In the games he lost, Tebow did not protect the ball well, however like many QB’s he took more chances when he was behind. But every QB has bad games. In the games he won, which was the majority, he protected the ball very well, and had an incredible stat of scores per snap. The stats are in his favor for being an above average QB. The only thing you have on your side is he doesn’t fit the modern NFL prototype for a QB, so as usual, you resort to name calling once again.
There’s nothing wrong with including fumbles. Not fumbling is part of protecting the ball. And for a QB that runs often than that’s an important stat.
Well now you’re in rather obvious territory. Yes when he turned the ball over less he was more likely to win. Part of Tebow’s problem is that most of his games, even the wins, were bad games. Any time a QB goes through a game with less than 10 completions that’s a bad game.
The stats are NOT in his favor being above average. His completion percentage and his QB rating are both SIGNIFICANTLY below average. The only thing in your favor is that the defense shaved 15 points a game off what they allowed, which gave his crappy stats a better than even chance of winning the game. He can’t complete passes, his stats are TERRIBLE, and only a cultist would think otherwise. If you don’t want to be labeled a cultist stop acting like one.
As a University of Washington graduate, I usually have a feeling schadenfeude when Wazzu grads fail but Ryan Leaf’s situation is just too sad. It is so pathetic that I can’t take any joy in it.
” Carrying the ball in the open field puts you in hazardous land in the NFL because you are open to more contact. “
Ever seen a quarterback hit while throwing the ball?
“Tebow has had several opportunities.
His rookie year had a shortened pre-season.
When finally given the job he took a losing team to the playoffs.
He was never given a chance at NY.
“17 TD passes for 23 games “
He didn’t start 23 games. And please add 6 rushing tds.
“8 games in 2012 with the Jets”
LOL!
“The stats are NOT in his favor being above average. His completion percentage and his QB rating are both SIGNIFICANTLY below average.”
He was held in check by the coaching. Denver had a ‘do not lose’ attitude with an aging running back. However ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Tebow#Denver_Broncos
After the three consecutive losses, Broncos vice president and former quarterback John Elway said Tebow was playing tentatively and needed to “pull the trigger.”[116][117] On January 8, Denver hosted the Pittsburgh Steelers during the first round of the NFL playoffs. Tebow threw for a career high 316 yards and two touchdowns, including an 80-yard TD to Demaryius Thomas on the first play of overtime, as the Broncos won 29–23.[117] Tebow completed 10 of 21 passes in the contest, setting an NFL record for yards per completion in a playoff game at 31.6.[
Who's fault was that?
When finally given the job he took a losing team to the playoffs.
And if that was due to Tebow alone then why weren't teams chomping at the bit to pick him up?
He was never given a chance at NY.
Why do you suppose that was? Could it be that the Jets coaching staff saw something in practice and in the games he did play in that convinced them that Tebow wasn't up to the QB job?
“Why do you suppose that was?”
The coach had an ‘investment’ in his franchise quarterback.
You're right, it was 12 games. My bad.
“And if that was due to Tebow alone then why weren’t teams chomping at the bit to pick him up?”
‘alone’ LOL. It is a team sport.
He had an investment in winning, too.
“You’re right, it was 12 games. My bad. “
He had a 75% completion rate with no interceptions and a qb rating of 84!
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