Posted on 07/11/2015 8:17:31 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
From the Washington Post, presidential announcement speech, June 16, 2015:
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs, They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
One of the first things that I look for when perusing through comments is to look for any hard data or empirical evidence that can either scuttle or bolster the contention that was made and is now being analyzed.
While the southern border of the United States certainly isn't being enforced as strictly as it could or should be, and violent people are certainly coming across the southern border into the United States, is Mexico being anthropormorphized here?
What is "Mexico"? The Mexican government?
If so, is the Mexican government literally rounding up bad civilians and forcing them to come to the U.S., and if so, is there any hard data to support this or must we resort to an Appeal to Ignorace, or in other words since we can't prove one way or the other, "Mexico" must be the ones sending them here?
Secondly, how many, empirically speaking, are raping women as they make their way here - be it from southern Mexico the interior of Mexico or from northern Mexico - but don't themselves come into the United States? How many women are raped by "coyotes" who themselves never actually enter the United States? What data do we have on this? Sure, there is data to support Mexican men having raped women at some point after they arrive in the United states, but what data has been posited that shows they raped women in Mexico or that they constitute the majority of illegal Mexican men coming into the United States?
Lastly, if, if he made any assumptions without data to support it, did he choose the right word by saying some? Should the word "most" have been used instead?
So, was he merely inartful with his choice of words, right on target - or something else?
What is your opinion on this?
Uh who might be doing the raping under trees on the illegal trails through the desert?
Americans dare not go into those areas anymore unless armed and in groups. Those areas are strewn with items purcased i Mexico.
The trees are hung with the panties of the victims whose stories are well documented by people down here.
Skeptisism understadable. You seem to be veering into cynicism or trolling
No one ever hears anything about the Mexican govt doing anything to help. Why should they.if zero gave a spit or congress gave a spit the pressure would be put on the Mexican govt to step up to the plate and knock this crap off.. What the hell gives? I remember last year when kids were pouring over the border that folks were outraged...you hear nothing about that now.
Here’s what I think then I’ll try to answer your questions.
I think Trump spoke the truth, but could have stated it better. I think he should have made it more clear that he was not saying all or most are rapists or criminals. What he said was true, we’re getting a lot of criminals coming across the border. (not boarder by the way)
Questions:
Do you believe that Trump was saying that the Mexican government is forcibly sending Mexicans, be it men or women, here into the United States?
No. The way he put it, I understand why it would be construed that way, he did say Mexico was “sending us...” etc. Not well spoken. I’ve heard, but not confirmed, that people in Mexico are seeing ads in newspapers and such suggesting they come here, similar to the ads in South America telling people they would be welcomed here, get free education, health care, and so forth. That’s proven fact, I’ve seen English translations of the articles posted online. Including copies of the original Spanish versions.
Secondly, do you believe that Trump has data that shows that all of the women being raped as they make their way into the United States have been raped by Mexican men who themselves also came into the United States?
No, and I don’t think he meant all of them. I don’t think he said all of them but not sure. He’s also not the first one to say this, I’ve seen it in news reports before. It is a problem, and quite common, but not all of them.
Do you believe that Trump should have said “most” are good people or was he correct in saying “some” are good people?
Yes I think he should have said most. A large number are Mexico’s riff raff. I’ve had to deal with them in Texas since 1976. my tools have been stolen, a framing crew in north Louisiana tried to steal our entire tool trailer, probably over $5,000 in tools, we caught them. The same framing crew that built the house we were doing the finish work on. The work I saw was incredibly sloppy, never saw a room less than 1 inch out of square. That’s horrible for a house that costs $300,000. I’ve seen the neighborhoods turned into slums in 2 years in Houston, Austin and San Antonio. I’ve seen 15 people living in a 2 room apartment, throwing beer cans in my yard every night. Apartment manager tried to make me pick them up, I refused. Told her go watch about 5:30PM and see who’s drinking, I don’t drink. Somebody picked up the beer cans, I didn’t...I’ve also seen how many claim they don’t speak English, and don’t even try to learn it. Go to Mexico and see how many places you find a menu in English...or anything else. Coke and McDonald’s signs is about it. See how many people even try to speak English while they come here and demand we learn Spanish, put Spanish on all packaging...
So I’m not sure “most” would be accurate. But that’s what he should have said anyway. Even though I don’t quite believe it.
Legal Mexican immigrants are a completely different story, I’ve known several. Always good people, never act like that. Every single one was welcome in the neighborhood.
How do you know what he meant when he used the words “When Mexico sends it’s people”? That is why I said what I said in post #15. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can read Trump’s mind.
How do you know what the left does or does not know? How does the “left” know what the “right” thinks or does not think?
The left may or may not be insisting on absolute literality, but is the burden upon the speaker to make themselves clear as to what they are saying or is the burden upon the ones who are listening to the speaker trying to figure out what they are saying or trying to say?
Yes, there are certainly results taking place and the border has got to be sealed, but if someone says “When Mexico sends its people” that seems rather declarative, as well as an anthropormorphism, but at the end, when Trump said “Some, I assume, are good people” that doesn’t sound pretty convincing.
I believe that Trump is being taken to task for being inartful. IMHO, if Trump hadn’t said “When Mexico send its people” and had said “most” instead of “some,” Trump would have avoided a lot of the mess that is stewing right now and would have bolstered his defenses.
that he wouldn’t be in the mess he is in now.
The mess he’s in now? Climbing to the top of the polls?
He has struck a chord with millions who have eyes that see the destruction of the unrestriction illegal alien inundation.
American citizens want it stopped.
Truth just offends many.
The point is, the “rape trees” issue was a Red Herring.
If we break this down, #1 illegal alien women coming into the U.S. #2 Illegal alien women being brought here by “coyotes,” and #3, illegal alien men who come into the U.S.
What data shows that the men in Mexico who rape women making their way into the U.S. also come into the U.S.?
What data shows that the “coyotes” who bring illegal alien women here and rape them also come into the U.S. and/or stay?
What data shows the percentage of illegal alien men who came into the U.S. raped women in Mexico or have raped anyone (be it an illegal alien woman or a U.S. citizen)?
Pete has it right. Further, it is simply refreshing to hear a statement that has not been written for the speaker by a PC speechwriter nor subjected to numerous “focus groups” to see if a listener finds fault.
Could the statement have been articulated to be more pleasant to more ears? Yes. Was the statement wrong? In general, no. I think most listeners understood his unfiltered message, as unaccustomed we are to hearing such. Many just heard what they wanted to hear so they could feign offense.
Truth hurts. Keep telling the truth, Trump. It makes me giggle to hear the lefties whine.
So what?
Michelle Bachmann was at the top and fizzled. Huckabee was at the top and fizzled. Giuliani was at the top by a wide margin and fizzled.
“If I speak with the tongues of men or of angels and do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or clanging cymbal.” (1 Cor. 13:1)
I am not saying that Trump doesn’t have love, but to say that if one is inartful they too can become a noisy gong or clanging cymbal. Words have meaning and they can bind up or wound, they can be spoken artfully or inartfully.
You have to do more than just strike a chord. If you say something you should have data to back it up. BTW, I am not saying that Trump doesn’t have data that deals with the questions I raised in the opening thread. But does he, though?
If one is familiar with the patterns of speech that are characteristic of men like Trump one can infer the intent. I was tempted to say that Trump needs to have his speeches proofread before he delivers them but realized they are far more effective unrehearsed. He is talking like the guys in the shipyard where I work and they hear him and know he knows what they perceive.
It was reported years ago that Mexico was deporting it’s poverty to the USA.
The Mexican Invasion continues unabated with the blessing of our government, crony capitalists, and the Left.
“I believe Donald spoke the truth.”
“When Mexico sends its people”
Is the Mexican government forcibly sending people here?
If the Mexican gov’t gives out fliers that shows how to get into the U.S. I don’t believe that is the same as sending them, if that is what Trump meant.
Secondly, #1 there are undoubtedly women who make their way into the U.S. and get raped along the way. What data shows that those men who raped them also come to the U.S. illegally? #2: there are “coyotes” who undoubtedly rape women, but what data shows those “coyotes” stay here illegally? #3: illegal alien men come into the U.S. along with illegal alien women, but what percentage actually rape women either in Mexico or after they get to the U.S.?
Can Donald Trump give any data for any of the three?
If not, should he then have said most, I assume are good people instead of “Some, I assume, are good people”?
Should he be given a pass for “They’re rapists” if he has no data for the aforementioned three? I am not saying he has no data. If he has some for the aforementioned three, I imagine that most Americans would like to see it.
“Pete has it right. Further, it is simply refreshing to hear a statement that has not been written for the speaker by a PC speechwriter nor subjected to numerous “focus groups” to see if a listener finds fault.”
I’m glad you brought that up. I hate to see politicians reading from a prepared speech. I watched Hillary’s speech a few days ago, she’s not even good at reading the thing. It was incredibly obvious she had no idea what she was about to say, she was reading every word of it. Badly.
Most politicians do the same thing. That’s one thing I like about Trump and Cruz. It was obvious Trump wasn’t reading a speech, he may have had some notes to refer to, that’s it. Cruz walks around all over the place with a headset mic and he’s obviously not reading anything.
And particularly worthy of mention are all those invertebrates with an R next to their name. (Not talking about every R... but the ones without a spine. And they are the majority of R.)
Inferring the intent doesn’t cut the mustard as no one is a mind reader.
How can Trump know what the guys in the shipyard perceive? Through ESP? And how can they know that he knows?
Is he running for “shipyard president,” “president of the U.S.” or President of the U.S. with words as a baseball bat”?
YES, Mexico is sending them:
Download Mexico’s Illegal Immigration Pamphlet
The Conservative Online ^ | 1/7/2005 | John Risvold
Posted on 1/6/2005, 11:55:49 AM by vmoney
It’s disturbing to think the amount of disrespect Mexico has for our sovereignty and our laws, and it also shows that we need to be much tougher on illegal immigration and immigrants living in the United States. Click here to download the pamphlet in PDF form.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1315378/posts
YES, the Mexican government proactively tells hungry Mexican families to go to the US to get free food -— one way that Mexico pushes its poorest off on US:
“USDA and the government of Mexico have entered into a partnership to help educate eligible Mexican nationals living in the United States about available nutrition assistance,” the USDA explains in a brief paragraph on its “Reaching Low-Income Hispanics With Nutrition Assistance” web page. “Mexico will help disseminate this information through its embassy and network of approximately 50 consular offices.”
http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/25/usdamexico-spanish-language-flyer-get-kids-on-food-stamps-without-showing-documents/
You are masking everything with your own prejudices. I didn’t say that Trump knows what shipfitters think. I said they hear him and believe that he knows what they perceive. I work among thousands of them. I talk to dozens. I get a pretty good idea of their views. Even the Central American contract workers like Trump because they fear the illegals taking their own jobs. All that said, I am not a fan. I prefer Cruz. I would like to add Trump’s apparent determination and speaking style (with better grammar) to Cruz’s understanding of the Constitution. Cruz is too methodical and even to excite those guys in the shipyard.
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