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July 1856
amazon.com | Nicole Etcheson, Douglas Southall Freeman

Posted on 07/01/2016 6:24:15 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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To: jjotto
The point is that a lot of CW arguing ignores the dilemma you describe. Slave-holders saw themselves as abiding by the Constitution (and the Declaration), and Abolitionists, driven by a novel interpretation of Christianity, sought to change the historic status quo.

In other words, Liberals were ignoring the clear meaning of Constitutional requirements and substituting their own personal feelings for the existing law. Same as today.

I just yesterday read a statement made by a man at the South Carolina secession convention and he touched on exactly the point you mentioned. He said the South was holding true to the meaning of the Declaration and the US Constitution, but it's requirements were being routinely violated by the Northern states.

21 posted on 07/01/2016 7:25:37 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
How do you stop slave owners from going into the territories or free states with their slaves?

In 1857, the SCOTUS ruled, "You don't." A ruling that lead directly to the election of Lincoln and the Civil War.

22 posted on 07/01/2016 7:29:53 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (I'm not a smug know-it-all; I just want you to experience epistemological closure.)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
In 1857, the SCOTUS ruled, "You don't." A ruling that lead directly to the election of Lincoln and the Civil War.

Wouldn't a constitutional amendment have been easier?

23 posted on 07/01/2016 7:32:51 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

Yes to all. Today’s American liberalism is a direct outgrowth of a novel interpretation of Christianity, and it is is odd (or possibly ironic) that it comes to fruition in pagan totalitarianism.


24 posted on 07/01/2016 7:34:28 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Nifster

The ToT was a cruel farce worked on the Cherokee and others, supposedly in concord with a few Indian bigwigs who presumed to have command over the rest. Even most forced deportations are not death marches.

“Christian ethics” took a big nose dive here.


25 posted on 07/01/2016 7:35:48 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

It’s like many entanglements in vice. There is such a warpage of conscience and defensiveness of evil, that it can not come undone overnight.

The original constitution shouldn’t have allowed slavery. That was a very poisonous pill for the new America. You can’t be trumpeting independence before God while denying some of His creatures the independence that He wants them to have. Not without inviting retribution.


26 posted on 07/01/2016 7:40:05 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
See Corwin Amendment.
27 posted on 07/01/2016 8:10:48 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The original constitution shouldn’t have allowed slavery.

Had it not protected slavery, the Southern states would have broken away in 1787 when the Northern states would not have been able to stop them.

28 posted on 07/01/2016 8:29:26 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: PeaRidge
See Corwin Amendment.

Is that the one that was proposed to guarantee stronger protection for slavery? The one that was originally intended to be the 13th amendment?

29 posted on 07/01/2016 8:31:35 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

I am not a big fan of the Civil War, a needless, horrible castrophe, but a constitutional amendment requires 3/4’s of the states and 2/3 of the Senate to approve it. The South cheered the Dred Scott decision, not realizing that the chain of events it unleashed.


30 posted on 07/01/2016 8:38:20 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (I'm not a smug know-it-all; I just want you to experience epistemological closure.)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
I am not a big fan of the Civil War, a needless, horrible castrophe, but a constitutional amendment requires 3/4’s of the states and 2/3 of the Senate to approve it. The South cheered the Dred Scott decision, not realizing that the chain of events it unleashed.

Their economic output was based on the usage of slave labor. People defend their rice bowls no matter what.

The problem was not so much with the Dred Scott decision, which was mostly correct from a legal technicality perspective, it is the fact that states who's culture had changed such that they no longer wished to abide by the agreement they had signed.

They were trapped by a law that said they had to enforce slavery whether they liked it or not, and their moral preferences.

What they did was ignore the law, and then made up excuses for refusing to enforce it. They knew they didn't have the clout to get an amendment passed, and so they simply practiced "Irish Democracy" on the issue.

31 posted on 07/01/2016 8:51:17 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
The real problem with Dred Scott was *not* the decision, which said that the Court did not have jurisdiction, but the commentary in the opinions, the obiter dicta, which indicated that the Court would rule favorably on a case challenging the right of states to outlaw slavery. (So much for states' rights.) Basically, the court was inviting an opportunity to overturn antislavery statutes in the North. Dred Scott's freedom had already been purchased by his supporters, so the case was moot.
32 posted on 07/01/2016 8:58:53 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (I'm not a smug know-it-all; I just want you to experience epistemological closure.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Oh indeed.

Besides the Cherokeewere a fully assimilated and successful community. The heathens were the dirty greedy gold diggers


33 posted on 07/01/2016 9:02:27 AM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets; DiogenesLamp
Here is part of an earlier discussion of Dred Scott from the January 1856 thread, reply #37

On April 6, 1846, Dred and Harriet Scott filed petitions in the Missouri circuit court at St. Louis seeking to establish their right to freedom based on their residence on free soil. Under Missouri law they had a strong case. As Fehrenbacher says, "again and again, the highest curt of the state had ruled that a master who took his slave to reside in a state or territory where slavery was prohibited thereby emancipated him." Unfortunately for the Scotts, their lawyer allowed a technical weakness in his case to sabotage the verdict. He didn't provide a witness that could establish that Mrs. Emerson owned the Scotts, even though all concerned knew that to be the case. Because of that defect the verdict went against the Scotts. They filed a motion for a retrial, but the defendant filed something called a bill of exceptions and the case was sent to the supreme court of Missouri. It was not until March 22, 1852 that the state supreme court handed down a decision. The Scotts still had the facts on their side and probably would have prevailed except that the issue of slavery had become so heated in the nation by 1852 that the proslavery justices of Missouri were not disposed to give the anti-slavery side their way. The court ruled against the Scotts.

34 posted on 07/01/2016 9:16:45 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
The real problem with Dred Scott was *not* the decision, which said that the Court did not have jurisdiction, but the commentary in the opinions, the obiter dicta, which indicated that the Court would rule favorably on a case challenging the right of states to outlaw slavery.

Which it would have to do to remain compliant with Article IV, section 2.

(So much for states' rights.)

The powers possessed by the states do not include powers that are explicitly removed by the US Constitution. Creating a "free state" is contradictory to Article IV, Section 2. It can't be done, or at least I can't see any way in which it could have been done.

Basically, the court was inviting an opportunity to overturn antislavery statutes in the North.

Yes, because the law was clearly against such statutes. How can you make a statute "freeing slaves" when the US Constitution requires that you return them to their owners? How does that work?

35 posted on 07/01/2016 9:59:57 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Nifster

The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

We knew, and the Indians knew, that the Indians were nomadic peoples. It’s not like they hated on sheer principle to move around as needed. But this was just crazy cruel.


36 posted on 07/01/2016 10:48:59 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

True . The Cherokee had a stable non-nomadic life by the 1700s. They were adept at trading, agriculture, and other wealth making activities


37 posted on 07/01/2016 10:51:45 AM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

This would have been a civil, not a criminal case and so they could have compelled Mrs. Emerson to testify. I don’t quite grok this.


38 posted on 07/01/2016 10:52:19 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
We knew, and the Indians knew, that the Indians were nomadic peoples. It’s not like they hated on sheer principle to move around as needed. But this was just crazy cruel.

This particular group of Indians were not nomadic at all. They lived in houses, grew crops, ran newspapers, they helped us fight the British, and they built things. They were the most civilized of all the Indians in North America, they are the Cherokees.

Do they look like nomadic Indians to you?

39 posted on 07/01/2016 1:43:38 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: chajin; henkster; CougarGA7; BroJoeK; central_va; Larry Lucido; wagglebee; Colonel_Flagg; Amagi; ...
 photo bleeding kansas_zpsghjtvtkg.jpg

Continued from June 30 (reply #45)

 photo BK 0704_zpsrdkh5b63.jpg

Nicole Etcheson, Bleeding Kansas: Contested Liberty in the Civil War Era

40 posted on 07/04/2016 7:33:47 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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