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What Good Can a Handgun Do Against an Army.....?
End The War on Freedom ^ | June 18, 2003 | Bill St. Clair

Posted on 08/10/2009 3:48:31 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

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I was sure this had been posted before, but couldn't find it. Seems to have been written during the Clinton administration. It needs to be re-read form time-to-time.
1 posted on 08/10/2009 3:48:31 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

WOLVERINES!


2 posted on 08/10/2009 3:51:25 PM PDT by Terry Mross ( I hate all politicians. Including republicans.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why do you think they have been trying to socially reform the military with gays in the military and women in combat? They know that if it comes to the thin red line between soldiers defending liberty and the constitution and killing and imprisoning fellow citizens the soldiers will stand with the citizen.


3 posted on 08/10/2009 3:51:55 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Why are those who claim to have open minds so afraid of open debate?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This story pops up from time to time, always a nice refreshing read.


4 posted on 08/10/2009 3:53:11 PM PDT by jblann1
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
A well-timed review. Study carefully; there may be a test later.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

5 posted on 08/10/2009 3:55:57 PM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Terry Mross

We all STILL have too much to lose.When it comes to nothing to lose then its on like donkey kong.Just remember the french resistance and also what the soviets had to contend with.


6 posted on 08/10/2009 3:57:00 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: Maelstorm

Homosexuals have been in every military since we lived in caves. I knew several during my time in the service, both male and (many more) female. None of the services train females for combat to the degree they do males, and I don’t see that changing in the near future. Remember the young female soldier that was taken captive early in the Iraq war? She couldn’t remember how to operate her M-16 rifle during the firefight. We had plans to evacuate our female soldiers from Korea in case of attack, which would have, of course, left us short-handed in an emergency. If they think that plan is working, they’d best re-think it.


7 posted on 08/10/2009 3:59:24 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (If we're an Empire, why are Cuba, Iraq, Philippines, Japan & Germany independent?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

A ragtag bunch of yahoos in Iraq sure did give our military an awful lot of trouble. Of course, they wouldn’t be as nice to us, but I’m sure we could cause them some pain.

But the military would be on our side. It’s Obama’s ‘civilian military force’ that we’d have to contend with.


8 posted on 08/10/2009 4:01:35 PM PDT by perfect_rovian_storm (The worst is behind us. Unfortunately it is really well endowed.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
It took 130,000 of the best troops in the world to control over 12 million people of which 15% were “insurgents”. Four “insurgents” with crude weapons could tie up 150 Marines for most of a day.
9 posted on 08/10/2009 4:04:54 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit The law will be followed, dammit!)
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To: imahawk
Just remember the french resistance .....

LMAO every time I see that myth posted.

Resistance, yeah sure, that explains that whole Petain Vichy thing when French Police and militia's rounded up Jews for their German overlords.

And more than half of air dropped supplies ended up in the hands of the communist tireurs who were turning in right wing resistance groups when they weren't murdering them outright.

The whores of Place Pigalle showed more resistance then the average frenchie

10 posted on 08/10/2009 4:04:57 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

BTTT


11 posted on 08/10/2009 4:06:07 PM PDT by hattend (Sarah Palin's minion - The Bush years divided us but Obama has united us all into an angry mob.)
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To: Terry Mross

That was a great movie!

And anyone who has seen it understands how to fight against a modern army.

You have to bide your time and pick your battles.


12 posted on 08/10/2009 4:08:31 PM PDT by beancounter13
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I enjoyed reading that, thank you! In a deteriorated situation, things break down into predators, prey and warriors. A warrior is someone who will not let themselves or those they protect be the victims. A warrior arms themselves with faith, intelligence, character and the biggest honking weapon they can snag.


13 posted on 08/10/2009 4:08:33 PM PDT by dog breath
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto held off the the entire mechanized Nazi machine for two weeks with paultry numbers of handguns, molotov cocktails, and whatever they could scrape together.


14 posted on 08/10/2009 4:09:07 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money. - Senator Everett Dirksen

There are approximately 836,000 law enforcement officers in the United States (Dept. of Justice). There are approximately 1.4 million active duty military personnel. The FBI estimates the number of privately-held firearms in the United States at 200 million. That's why "your gun versus an army" is not a particularly plausible case.

15 posted on 08/10/2009 4:10:56 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Covenantor

I’ve heard that it was amazing how the ranks of the Resistance swelled, after the war was over.


16 posted on 08/10/2009 4:12:45 PM PDT by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I bet if it ever comes to the Army against private (conservative) citizens, all the rules & squeemishness regarding collateral damage will go out the window.


17 posted on 08/10/2009 4:13:33 PM PDT by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I don’t think that is an argument. Who knows about what was going on in caves. :-) It is one thing to know homosexuals it is another to allow the celebration of the lifestyle in the military. I know of several cases of male rape have occurred and gay activism is incompatible with the military. Also homosexuality is a disease ridden lifestyle and open homosexuality is a distraction from the goals of the military.

I do believe my basic assertion is true. The left has been trying to soften the military through forced social programs and they do want to re-educate our soldiers not just on the two issues I mentioned buy down the line.
They have been brainwashing the public for decades the military is the one place they have yet to conquer.


18 posted on 08/10/2009 4:14:13 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Why are those who claim to have open minds so afraid of open debate?)
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To: Billthedrill

Huh? I think you just made this gentleman’s case, or did I misunderstand you?


19 posted on 08/10/2009 4:15:49 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (If we're an Empire, why are Cuba, Iraq, Philippines, Japan & Germany independent?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When misfortune begins to befall the Praetorian Guards, eventually the emperor finds himself alone.


20 posted on 08/10/2009 4:17:04 PM PDT by The Duke ("Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Democrat Party?")
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To: Riley
"I’ve heard that it was amazing how the ranks of the Resistance swelled, after the war was over.

Indeed...made one wonder what that D-day fuss was all about.

Typical Parisian resistance cell. code name "Lucky Pierre"


21 posted on 08/10/2009 4:20:39 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: Maelstorm

The Left has controlled the schools (at all levels) since at least the 1960’s. Almost everyone that goes into the military comes out of the public school system. I graduated high school in 1978, so I wasn’t nearly as indoctrinated as the kids today, although I saw signs of it in the 70’s, with the “stop pollution” and “save the whales” jazz.


22 posted on 08/10/2009 4:21:07 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (If we're an Empire, why are Cuba, Iraq, Philippines, Japan & Germany independent?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"I forget the name of the Senator who observed, "You know, a million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about serious money."


That well loved Statesman, Republican Senator from Illinois, Everett McKinley Dirksen. He also happened to be the father-in-law of Senator Howard Baker of Tennessee. Dirksen was legendary for his fondness for the common marigold. His wife Louella Carver Dirksen wrote a biography, "The Honorable Mr. Marigold: My Life With Everett Dirksen." The Dirksen Senate Office Building is named in his honor.
23 posted on 08/10/2009 4:25:23 PM PDT by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Yes, I'm agreeing with the gentleman; sorry if I didn't manage to make that clear. But I doubt seriously it'll ever devolve to the level of a single-shot Liberator in the streets of the U.S. (It was a particularly crappy little gun anyway - it wasn't even rifled). This isn't France in the 40's.

What will happen is a slow incrementalism intended to leach the firearms out of the most armed citizenry anywhere. It is happening: environmental restrictions against lead ammunition, zoning regulations intended to make possession of firearms in urban and suburban areas impossible, attempts to stretch terrorism laws to cover domestic disarmament. That's what we have to watch for, IMHO.

24 posted on 08/10/2009 4:28:36 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
if it only takes out ONE traitor to this country before i go down, than it's done it's job... and there's one less traitorous bastard to hurt anybody else while going against their oath to defend this country from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC!!!
25 posted on 08/10/2009 4:31:55 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist -ww- I AM JIM THOMPSON!)
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To: perfect_rovian_storm
"But the military would be on our side. It’s Obama’s ‘civilian military force’ that we’d have to contend with."

ACORN (and the like) is the 5th column.

The czars make up the Star Chamber.

26 posted on 08/10/2009 4:35:11 PM PDT by knarf
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Yeah but it has gotten worse. I went to public school. I remember getting the little environmental tracks. They weren’t requiring us to sign gay pledge cards like in some public schools and having boys dressing as girls at the prom. The world operates just fine without such activism and there is no need for it.

I did go through a short period where I was somewhat a socialist. It sounded like a nice idea if everyone had the same basic house and the same basic things and then I realized that such a quaint idea would soon become a requirement that no one have anything but the basics and that didn’t sound like a very good place to live unless one thought of themselves as worthless with no hope for any better.

That said it appears to me that the military has had to undo a lot of the public school ego-gratification crap.


27 posted on 08/10/2009 4:36:56 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Why are those who claim to have open minds so afraid of open debate?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The gun will do whatever it can do. Look at the situation that recently occurred in India in which unarmed people were tortured and murdered by stinking muslim pigs. Had I been there, I would have fired every round I have into those rotten bastards. Every round except the last one, because if I cannot take out all of my enemies, then I will take out myself instead. I will not be taken, I will not be imprisoned, nor tortured, nor executed.

My gun puts me in charge of my fate. Obviously, I do not ever want to have to face this situation, but should it arise, I have control. I will never beg upon my knees for mercy from a tyrant.


28 posted on 08/10/2009 4:37:23 PM PDT by chris37
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; Billthedrill
I think you just made this gentleman’s case, or did I misunderstand you?

It sounds like one-hundred to one odds if each weapon had a citizen to handle it. I bet that's better than the odds of slipping on ice. It may not be possible to know how many patrolmen or troopers, if asked to take up arms against their brothers and neighbors, would ditch the powers that be and join the citizenship patrols, but it is not as if there is not a precedence.

29 posted on 08/10/2009 4:37:42 PM PDT by higgmeister ( In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: Covenantor

I’m not going to hammer the French too hard, they *did* have people who risked- and suffered- much under the German occupation. Of that, there is no doubt in my mind.

I’ve heard though that after the war, half the Frenchmen you’d meet in a pub somewhere were garroting German sentries on a nightly basis- if you can believe what they say. :-)


30 posted on 08/10/2009 4:37:55 PM PDT by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: Terry Mross
WOLVERINES!

You rang?

31 posted on 08/10/2009 4:41:39 PM PDT by Jed Eckert
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To: Joe Brower

First thoughts when I saw this ping was the liberator pistol of WWII

.
Second thought was all hardened weapons platforms have soft pink centers.

Third thought was the 90 pound PC hired LEO SWAT split tail down the street from me has all I need when I want to take it.

Last but not least uncle sugar taught me skills that do not require firearms. Even a bunny wabbit will bite if cornered an no way out.

My opinions......


32 posted on 08/10/2009 4:43:05 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Riley

The problem with France and the French, and I speak the language and have been to school there, is that the best of them got killed in WW1, and WW2. The ones that were left to breed included some beautiful women, but the men, well, they’re short on some qualities.


33 posted on 08/10/2009 4:49:00 PM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I was on the phone last week with my son and we discussed this very topic. He is active Army, Infantry. 11 Bravo. He said they talked among themselves about this while in Iraq once in awhile. His said NO ONE he talked with, some Officers included, would obey any command to attack or harm U.S. citizens.

I felt better after that phone call.

34 posted on 08/10/2009 4:49:05 PM PDT by MountainDad
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To: Maelstorm

“Why do you think they have been trying to socially reform the military with gays in the military and women in combat? They know that if it comes to the thin red line between soldiers defending liberty and the constitution and killing and imprisoning fellow citizens the soldiers will stand with the citizen.”

There is no reason to believe that Gay people and women wouldn’t defend the Constitution. I would be more worried about the legions of gang-bangers and foreign nationals who are serving.

I once argued with a friend about the military takeover of America. I pointed out to him that as a percentage of population the Police and military are small. A certain percent of them wouldn’t go along with the scheme anyway. Add that to the millions of firearms and the rather large population of ex-military who are staunch defenders of the Republic in this country and you have a recipe for defeat.

They could control the urban areas but the more forceful and arrogant they become the greater the level of resistance they would engender which would lead to their ultimate downfall. The revenge a betrayed populace would exact would be horrific.

They will probably engineer a medical emergency instead.


35 posted on 08/10/2009 4:50:01 PM PDT by dljordan
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To: RKV

I studied French for three years in High School and in College, and didn’t have a lot of opportunities to use it. That was many years ago.

Now I deal with French speakers frequently, and can only remember the odd phrase here and there.

*sigh*


36 posted on 08/10/2009 4:52:30 PM PDT by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

With a handgun against an Army you can die like a man, with a vigorous second amendment and a citizenry armed as the founders intended you can live like a man.


37 posted on 08/10/2009 4:52:59 PM PDT by jwalsh07 (CommieCare: Need a Stent, Take a Pain Pill. Next!)
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To: Joe Brower

Mentally ready for the test later.


38 posted on 08/10/2009 4:53:09 PM PDT by Nuc1 (NUC1 Sub pusher SSN 668 (Liberals Aren't Patriots))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Later


39 posted on 08/10/2009 4:54:06 PM PDT by Doomonyou (Let them eat Lead.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
The author of this piece appears to be Mike Vanderboegh as submitted by Bill St. Clair. It might be important to ask the AdminMod to change the author line.

In another posting of this piece it is prefaced by a quote from Federalist 28 which is quite appropriate:

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense, which is paramount to all positive forms of government; and which, against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success, than against those of the rulers of an individual state. ... Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments; and those will have the same disposition toward the general government. The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. ...

"It may safely be received as an axiom in our political system that the state governments will in all possible contingencies afford complete security against invasions of the public liberty by the national authority."

40 posted on 08/10/2009 4:56:37 PM PDT by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Liberator The FP-45 Liberator was a pistol manufactured for the United States military during World War II for use by resistance forces in occupied territories. It was designed with the idea of offering an enemy soldier a cigarette, putting a round of .45 ACP twixt his eyes or in the base of his skull, and "liberating" the now deceased soldier's rifle, SMG, grenades, or anything else of military utility. A crude and clumsy weapon, the Liberator was never intended for front line service. It was originally intended as an insurgency weapon to be mass dropped behind enemy lines to resistance fighters in occupied territory. The weapon was valued as much for its psychological warfare effect as its actual field performance. It was believed that if vast quantities of these weapons could be delivered into Axis occupied territory, it would have a devastating effect on the morale of occupying troops. The plan was to drop the weapon in such great quantities that occupying forces could never capture or recover all the weapons. It was hoped that the thought of thousands of these unrecovered weapons potentially in the hands of the citizens of occupied countries would have a deleterious effect on enemy morale. The pistol had its origins in the US Army Joint Psychological Committee and was designed for the United States Army in 1942 by the Inland Guide Lamp Manufacturing Division of the General Motors Corporation in Dayton, Ohio.[1] The army designated the weapon the Flare Projector Caliber .45 hence the designation FP-45. This was done to disguise the fact that a pistol was being mass produced.[2] The original engineering drawings label the barrel as "tube", the trigger as "yoke", the firing pin as "control rod", and the trigger guard as "spanner". The Guide Lamp Division plant in Anderson, Indiana assembled a million[2] of these weapons. The Liberator project took about 6 months from conception to end of production with about 11 weeks of actual manufacturing time, done by 300 workers. The FP-45 was a crude, single-shot pistol designed to be cheaply and quickly mass produced. The ejection system was a wooden rod that was pushed down the barrel from the muzzle end to eject the fired cartridge case. The Liberator had just 23 largely stamped and turned steel parts that were cheap and easy to manufacture. It fired a .45 caliber pistol cartridge from an unrifled barrel. Due to the unrifled barrel, maximum effective range was only about 25 feet (less than 8 m). At longer range, the bullet would begin to tumble.
41 posted on 08/10/2009 4:57:41 PM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: Terry Mross

It took them generations to lull the sheep into accepting them as rulers instead of elected representatives.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It only took a few generations of “free” government K-12 indoctrination. The very act of stepping their first foot into kindergarten teaches children that it is OK for the government to take from their neighbor to provide something their parents want for them.


42 posted on 08/10/2009 4:59:01 PM PDT by wintertime (People are not stupid! Good ideas win!)
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To: SLB

FYI


43 posted on 08/10/2009 4:59:11 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson (Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry. - Oliver Cromwell)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The other angle why the civilian populace in the US would not have to deal with tanks, A-10’s and the like is this:

As every combat vet can attest, war, even “limited” war, makes a mess of things. War doesn’t just kill people, it radically undercuts real estate valuations.... in a hurry.

If the motto of real estate agents is “location, location, location!” then the contra-positive to this is “don’t own any property where some young soldier or Marine lights off a 120mm smooth bore...”

Well, what happens when people do own property in the proximity of the military doing military-like stuff? Economic activity stops. Folks quit shopping, they sure as heck don’t take tourism side-trips to see the Abrams tear up the streets, folks pack up and leave Dodge... etc.

No economic activity, no tax revenue. No tax revenue... and the government soon has a problem funding government operations... like the military.

So the military would likely not be able to use all their big toys. They’d be down to boots in the street, much as the Brits were in North Ireland. And we all know how successful the Brits were at pacifying North Ireland, don’t we?


44 posted on 08/10/2009 5:00:23 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I really don't think the US government agents are going door to door taking our firearms away from us.

But if the fools try something like that, I predict there will be more dead government thugs than civilians.

45 posted on 08/10/2009 5:09:46 PM PDT by Prole (Please pray for the families of Chris and Channon. May God always watch over them.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; Terry Mross

At the end of “Red Dawn” didn’t the Wolverines lose? I only remember them getting shot by the helicopters.


46 posted on 08/10/2009 5:17:24 PM PDT by Tucson_AZ
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To: dljordan

They simply don’t belong in the military. People who need their personal sexual lifestyle to be gratified publicly regardless of what type of sexual peculiar lifestyle they lead suggests they are unfit. It isn’t about whether they can serve admirably. That wasn’t my point, my point is that gay activism is just a way to mold the military and intimidate and soften it. Gays who keep their private lives private are not as much an issue to me. It is the leftist social activism and the false idea that homosexuality is normal. Very many cases of gay rape occur in the military but go unreported. Just as occurs in the public space.

Open homosexuality should not be endorsed or accepted in the military one because it is a behavior that is even more disease ridden than typical promiscuous behavior. Also members of the same sex living in close quarters should not be threatened with same sex attentions is what open homosexuality means in the military. A friend of mine related a story where he came upon an officer raping a subordinate male. Gay males are sexually aggressive and allowing them to openly serve will only increase this and increase the exposure to health risks associated with such populations.

They have a great tendency to take advantage of their positions to abuse others. This is far greater than the norm. We’ve seen this in the priesthood, we’ve seen this in teachers, we’ve seen this in police officers, and foster parents. Certainly heterosexuals do molest but homosexuals make heterosexuals look like pikers. Part of this is because so many of them have been molested themselves. Even Rock Hudson was abused when he was 9 and if you don’t find this you will find far too often that a older male has groomed an underling. This is not something we need in the military. They have enough crap and clap already.


47 posted on 08/10/2009 5:22:18 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Why are those who claim to have open minds so afraid of open debate?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I would expect the Military to turn on Obama if he ever suggested firing on our own people. The Military is keenly aware of their Oath to the Constitution.
48 posted on 08/10/2009 5:24:27 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy ("It does no good to be a super power if you have to worry what the neighbors think." BuffaloJack)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

If the us gov’t, military or law enforcement turn against the people the most effective weapons would be explosives, not firearms.

The ragheads in Iraq know this and are using them to great success.


49 posted on 08/10/2009 5:28:37 PM PDT by Dayman (My 1919a4 is named Charlotte. When I light her up she has the voice of an angel.)
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To: imahawk

If it gets to the point we have nothing to lose, it could very well be too late. Churchill has a quote regarding such a circumstance.


50 posted on 08/10/2009 5:40:11 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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