Skip to comments.Srebrenica, lies and media games
Posted on 02/16/2006 8:36:01 PM PST by zagor-te-nej
The Srebrenica operation was planned so that Bosnian Serb forces were positioned in a shape of a horseshoe, thus intentionally leaving space for the Muslim army and civilians to retreat North, North-West towards Tuzla. The distance of 36km and the configuration of the terrain are such that any man in average physical condition can cross it on foot. The military operation was conducted in this manner with the intention of minimizing the number of casualties, since the Muslims had brought in substantial military forces. If the Muslim forces had been hermetically enclosed, a violent fight would have ensued in which the army of Republika Srpska (RS) would also have suffered serious casualties. Whence the horse - shoe plan.
All this can be clearly seen on the above American map showing the withdrawal of the Muslim army. It should also be noted that no ambush was set up at Snagovo. Rather, the main contingent of the Muslim army itself planned to infiltrate into the town of Zvornik and thus create a street fighting situation for the army of RS. The clashes at Nova Kasaba in the Konjevic Field occurred due to the Muslim blockade of the main road that goes from Belgrade to Zvornik - to Vlasenica to Han Pijesak to Sarajevo, i.e. to Bosnian Serb capital Pale.
(Excerpt) Read more at trajkovic.co.yu ...
Mladic was out for blood, and it was only the lack of motivation amongst the Serbian blocking forces which allowed the head of the Muslim column to pierce their lines and escape. Once the Bosnian Serb command became aware of the column and its likely route, orders to block its movement were issued, and those orders form part of the body of evidence at Krstic's trial.
Srebrenica just isn't something the Serbs can lie about and get away with it anymore.
They left the opening for the muslims to leave and the VRS gave a block of time for everyone to leave, a group wanted to leave, whereas another group refused. What you had was an ensuing firefight between two muslim camps within Srebrenica region. The Serbs sat and watched til it was militarily right to move in to defeat any lingering muslim military forces.
I had many Sreb region pictures posted on my website, but since took down my site. However, they will be back up in another week.
Currently, all homes are still abandoned, nothing.
If he were out for blood, why did he not attempt to take Sarajevo? Why did he not try and take Tuzla, the HQ of muslim fanaticism in BiH? If he were out for blood, there was ample of oppty to do so. Why did he not hold onto Gorazde and "wipe out" the muslim terrorists that were holding that towns citizenry hostage?
The islamofascist cheerleaders are in a complete snit as their anti-Serb fictions continue to erode in the light of truth.
Go back to flipping burgers Popeye.
pictures 1-2 are Lupoglavno Serbian church destroyed. I stopped here upon seeing this burned out Serbian Church. While I was eating a quick meal, a small gathering of people gathered by and walked slowly past me on the road, staring. Another individual was trying to hide behind a tree and observe. I took a picture of him and upon that, he "walked away".
pic 6 Bratunac region nearing Mali Potocari on the road to Srebrenica.
Hoplite's strawmen are starting to come apart.
The Serbs at some future time will no longer be villianized, but they would not be relinquished from being tarnished with all those lies. That stigma will forever remain, but the up/coming generation will not see the Serbs as being the bad guys, but the precursor to the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT), the fight against islam.
Problem being that the MSM outlets' attempt to rewrite history will always be seen as ancillary and never truly scrutinized by the International community. It essentially gives the MSM outlets a free pass to manipulate public opinion based on lies and conjecture.
Becauase the troops under his command turned out to be nothing more than casualty averse cowards, better suited for engaging in combat operations against unarmed persons than opponents who were comparably armed to themselves. When confronted by a determined opponent, they either dug in and started shelling civilians, as was the case at Sarajevo, or, if the enemy brought the fight to them and negated the Serb's armor and artillery superiority, they turned tails and ran like little girls - which is exactly what happened in 1995 when the Croats took back the Krajina and drove on through up to the approaches to Banja Luka.
And before you or anybody else gets too stupid in regards to parroting this BS about the BSA coming down with a case of altruism and allowing the Srebrenica column to escape, consider the following from Dragan Obrenovic, DCO of the Zvornik Brigade, which relates to events of July 15th, 1995:
I went to my office and spoke to Vasic. We spoke about the column and the Muslim prisoners. Vasic suggested that a corridor be opened in the lines to let the column through to avoid casualties and relieve the threat the column posed on the security of Zvornik as well as the rear of our front lines. Special Police Commander Ljubomir Borovcanin and Special Police officer Milos Stupar arrived and joined the meeting. We continued discussions with regard to the column. I felt I needed higher authority to open such a corridor and attempted to reach the Commander of the Drina Corps.
I telephoned the Drina Corps and was put through to the Duty Officer there. I asked for the Commander and was told that Pandurevic had already left for Zvornik. There were no other officers at the Corps who could help me so I ended the call.
Unable to speak to a Commander at Drina Corps, I then telephoned the Main Staff and spoke to General Miletic. At that stage I thought he was the operations officer, but I now know that he was standing in for the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff. I told Miletic of the columns size and location and suggested that the lines be opened up to let it pass through. Miletic did not approve of this and said that I should use all military hardware possible to stop and destroy the column as I had been ordered to do. General Miletic told me that the column should be destroyed. He further complained to me about using an insecure line and hung up. I therefore did not have an opportunity to discuss the matter properly with him. From my knowledge of the column and the situation on the ground, I knew it was impossible to destroy the column as Miletic had suggested.
Vasic then said jokingly that the army was stupid and that he was going to call the Ministry of Interior. Vasic then placed a telephone call to Pale on the speakerphone. He spoke to an advisor to the Minister of Interior. He explained the situation to this advisor and asked permission to allow the column to pass. The advisor said that he should find the army and alert the airforce and kill them all. We did not have the capability to use air power and it was clear to all of us that our superiors did not comprehend fully what was going on the ground with regard to the column. Thinking aloud, I then asked myself where General Zivanovic could be. Borovcanin responded that Zivanovic was no longer the Corps Commander, and that General Krstic was now the Drina Corps Commander. I then tried to get hold of General Krstic. I was able to get hold of the communications officer Major Milenko Jevdevic, who in turn connected me to General Krstic.
Source: Statement of Facts as set out by Dragan Obrenovic
Thus, the only "corridor" opened in relation to the Srebrenica column was the one opened unilaterally by Colonel Pandurevic on the 16th of July, contrary to orders, and only after the column had overrun the rear of the Zvornik Brigade's 4th Infantry Battalion's positions around Nezuk/Baljkovica and linked up with BiH units which had assaulted the 4th Bn's front in order to meet the column.
Once the armed portion of the column had passed through, the Serbs closed the corridor and recommenced hunting down parts of the column which were still in areas under their control. Had the 4th Battalion not had to detach manpower to take part in the executions of those already captured, it might have held its lines.
But, alas, that's typical of the Serbs as of late - they'd rather kill unarmed folks than run their wars in a competent, honorable manner, and they'd rather lie about their incompetency and dishonor than deal with either, which is why Ratko Mladic is still at liberty today, no prosecution for war crimes has been mounted by Belgrade against any ranking member of its armed forces of police, and FR's threads are still polluted by this Serbian revisionist garbage.
"More Serbian revisionism."
Exactly....revising it to the truth and not the lies that were initially told.
Bright eyes, the Serbs could have taken all of Bosnia and Croatia if they chose too. They stopped and dug in and hoped talks would end the fighting. How many times did you hear Radovan say they were done fighting and as far as they were concerned, the war was over.
Their was a corridor for anyone wanting to leave with that open corridor. That is a fact and was even "accidently" reported during that time period.
Ever wonder why all the "Serbs" in custody or on as witnesses all parrot the same lines? They were promised something for it, whether it was good or bad, we don't know. So, don't tell us it was their good conscious talking.
The Serb soldiers began chasing down armed muslims that were combatents under the Geneva Convention. War is war. If you were a soldier and were fired upon by "civilians" carrying military gear and weapons, I'm sure you would fire back too. What the heck you suppose we are fighting and firing at in Iraq/Afghan, civilians that are not formally organized but carrrying weapons. Shooting at us, so you fire back.
So, lightening, you are grouping US Marines and Soldiers in the same category as the VRS. How commendable and therefore you acquit as your defense doesn't fit! You are a moron, you idiot.
Hoopie, you have gall slandering the Serbs and how they fight the Islamofascist scum while the people you support fly hijacked aircraft into buildings over American soil.
Just like David Irving. Keep up the good work, Tom.
When you say "the article is correct", you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little confused, as the article is demonstrably incorrect, per Colonel Obrenovic's statement. Do you intend to merely ignore any evidence that doesn't fit into your game plan? Seems to be your plan, so let's see how your take on the mass graves stacks up with reality.
The act of excavating, transporting and reburying 7,000 bodies was beyond the capabilies of the defunked Serbian army at that time. Surveillance would also have detected the movement.
The problem here is that not only has forensic evidence proved conclusively that bodies were moved, some of those tasked with moving the bodies have admitted their part in the plan:
From September through October 1995 the Bratunac Brigade, working with the civilian authorities, exhumed the mass grave at Glogova and other mass graves of Muslim victims of the murder operation, and reburied them in individual mass graves throughout the greater Srebrenica area. In September 1995 I was contacted by Colonel Popovic, the Drina Corps Chief of Security, and told to conduct a reburial of the Muslim bodies at Glogova. I coordinated the effort to exhume and re-bury Muslim bodies from mid-September to October 1995. This was done in coordination with the Bratunac Brigade Military Police, civilian police, and elements of the 5th Engineering Battalion of the Drina Corps. I reported on a Bratunac Brigade Commandmeeting in October 1995 to the assembled Command including Colonel Blagojevic that we were tasked with conducting the reburial operation of the Muslim bodies for the VRS Main staff.
Source: Statement of Facts and Acceptance of Responsibility, Momir Nikolic.
Further, in 2004 the Bosnian Serb government itself finally broke down and threw off the idiotic charade it was maintaining in regards to Srebrenica and disclosed the location of 32 further Srebrenica related mass graves which had thus far escaped detection.
So what are you bringing to the discussion, huh Tom? Nothing but BS, that's what. Not only are you pushing lies about the mass graves, you're still pushing outdated identification numbers, as the 2,000th Srebrenica victim was identified through the work the ICMP is doing in Bosnia in 2005.
Lastly, there were initially 15,000 reported missing from Srebrenica, over the course of the last decade, the missing list has been whittled down until now it stands at ~7,800. The voters to which you refer are not on the current list. The Bosnian Serbs reported they had over 6,000 prisoners after Srebrenica fell, and almost to a man, those prisoners were executed.
Your ignorance on the matter is embarrassing Tom. Do yourself a favor and stick to lying about Kosovo.
No - you're the one trying to equate our servicemen and their work with drunken Serbian Einsatzgruppen.
Recall that as soon as you were made aware of the implications, you disavowed any service in the VRS as if it were a curse.
There's Serbian courage and honor for you.
Gee Hoopie, maybe he was telling the truth. Do you know what truth is? I do have to ask although, given your posts, it's clear that you avoid the truth even if you do know it.
There's Serbian courage and honor for you.
9/11 showed us Muhammedan honor, didn't it? Murdering 3000+ American civilians told us all we need to know about Muhammedan honor.
How many American lives could have been saved if NATO would have stayed out of the way and allowed the Serbs to do what needed to be done. What must be done. What will be done.
You must be hitting very close to the truth, you've got Hoopie raving.
I sort of thought so......he is easy to get worked up. The thing about the boy is that when he gets stumped, he goes back to the DOS, and seeks advice. He does his spin, does a little thinking ahead and hopes that no one does some serious research. He has a tendency of leaving out significant info....to mislead.
You have to admit that these ravings and insults are worthy of high school Civics Student. How can you take these people serious like Hoplite and frank nerd, when they behave like they were not even 21 yet......:)
Wow....I got the feeling that the DoS has employed two losers...Hoplite and F. Nerd to take me on....
Yet, their posts support our assertions that Islam is a Serious threat.......and even Australia is fighting their influence.
So, am I missing something here? :) this is beyond normal....
I never made any implications about the VRS. It is you that made the assumption, not I. When I turned the table around you in calling for the Albanian-Americans to be judged as equal in your eyes, meaning they should be held as traitors, you backed off, lightening.
Learn how to read.
The Serbian effort to gain lebensraum through ethnic cleansing had nothing to do with our War on Terror. Further, Serbia's continued sheltering of their foremost practitioner of ethnic cleansing, Ratko Mladic, is turning Serbia into a pariah nation, again.
But whatever. You just go on convincing yourself that Serbia was in the right, while the rest of the world grows ever more weary of Serbia's xenophobic ethno-racism and its perpetual victim worldview.
I never made any implications about the VRS.
Yeah, you did.
Just because you've gone through more user accounts on FR than you can keep track of doesn't mean you get to disown your previous posts, Z-man. You were either lying then, or you're lying now.
Your choice. Either way, you're a liar.
Yeah, you did. || whatever, marcus, whatever. Conjure up your grandeur fantasies. Just because you never made it beyond an Army National Guardsmen Specialist, don't take it out on us, ok? It is not my fault you were so ate up.
Besides, your man Mladic is a moot point, he is irrelevant nowadays. The Serb people don't care about him. He will be caught as it will be an internal reason for his capture. Radovan- differant story. Let him go and he will have his legacy and the people will only read about him in the story books. Your boy Slobo grandstands so he saves his own skin and hide so when people read about him, they will only remember the trial as he has his revisionist apologists planted everywhere (Sucks to be them in the end).
No, it hasn't, because the Serb version of "fighting Islam" includes rape, theft, mayhem and murder.
Talk all the trash you want, but Serbia is still in the doghouse over what it did in the 1990's, shall remain there until it starts to address that legacy.
Conjure up your grandeur fantasies.
All I've ever done on the matter of your service in the VRS is remind you of your own posts. You screwed yourself, Z-man. Nobody to blame but that dude in your mirror.
Murder is another way of saying you killed a combatent. Depends how you define murder, ehh? Your pals on the other forum say it is murder, so which LFer are you on there, Rusalka? Again, you failed to answer my questions I pose to you. Whaddya know, i found this on your site:
Oric Video to Remain as Evidence
(TU No 440, 17-Feb-06)
Judges presiding over the trial of Srebrenica-based Bosnian army commander Naser Oric have denied the defences request to appeal against a decision that a controversial video interview with the accused will not be removed from evidence.
The defence complained that the interview with Oric, which was filmed by investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor in Sarajevo in April and May 2001, is unreliable because of translation flaws and inaccuracies in the English transcript. However, trial judges ruled last week that the video would still be included in the case against the accused.
Oric is charged with leading Bosnian Muslim combatants in attacks on over 50 Serb villages in eastern Bosnia in 1992 and 1993.
Yeah, yeah. And the Serbian definition of "combatant" is "Somone who got killed", regardless of whether they were under arms or even in the custody of Serbian forces at the time.
It's all just a lame Serbian argument and nobody outside of Serbia pays it any attention anymore, including me. However, if you wish to discuss the subject further, I suggest you make an appointment with your unit JAG representative so you can fully explore your feelings on the matter.
more and more evidence is being brought forward that your friends, the muslims, are being heavily recruited in Bosnia for future operations. Yet, your denial shows your love for them. Why is that?
sorry bub, I'm cleared.
You can push that agenda on these Serb apologists on this forum or on LF. That is their belief and whatnot and if I had my choice, Mladic would be caught and turned in for the sake of the world. He is fairly easy to get I imagine, try Serbian Army bases. That is where they nearly got him when I was in Serbia back in 2004. They nearly got him but the mission was compromised by dunno. Maybe you know, Marcus?
The Bosnians never made it to Afghanistan or Iraq in any significant numbers because Osama's ideology never caught on in any meaningful way - as a matter of fact, the largest contingent of Bosnians outside of Bosnia is deployed in Iraq as part of the coalition.
Enough of your nonsense for another year.
yeah, another year when i return from Iraq, Marcus.
I'm going to give you as a source, the correct report in detail. I don't have the time to paraphrase or give you more than than you deserve.
Most of the info and links you provided were the fabrications and coverups in order to support our intervention into the Balkans. The idea is to inject truth. You have only provided the lies and the exaggerations that were well crafted.
"The voters to which you refer are not on the current list"
Yes, the voters 3,010 were on the current list. The OSCE was not forthcoming with the list, so you are lying as you don't know. You are not special enough to have seen the entire list since the OSCE would not provide it.
Oh, just in case you get tired of reading, and being embarrassed at being caught lying again, here is couple of paragraphs.....
"With 8,000 executed and thousands killed in the fighting there should have been huge grave sites and satellite evidence of both executions, burials, and any body removals. But the body searches in the Srebrenica vicinity were painfully disappointing, with only some two thousand bodies found in searches through 1999, including bodies killed in action and possibly Serb bodies, some pre-dating July 1995. The sparseness of these findings led to claims of body removal and reburial, but this was singularly unconvincing as the Bosnian Serbs were under intense military pressure after July 1995. This was the period when NATO was bombing Serb positions and Croat/Muslim armies were driving towards Banja Luka. The BSA was on the defensive and was extremely short of equipment and resources, including gasoline. To have mounted an operation of the magnitude required to exhume, transport and rebury thousands of corpses would have been far beyond the BSAs capacity at that time. Furthermore, in carrying out such a program they could hardly hope to escape observation from OSCE personnel, local civilians, and satellite observations."
There were witnesses to killings at Srebrenica, or those who claimed to be witnesses. There were not many of these, and some had a political axe to grind or were otherwise not credible,  but several were believable and were probably telling of real and ugly events. But we are talking here of evidence of hundreds of executions, not 8,000 or anything close to it. The only direct participant witness claim that ran to a thousand was that of Drazen Erdemovic, an ethnic Croat associated with a mercenary group of killers whose members were paid 12 kilos of gold for their Bosnian service (according to Erdemovic himself) and ended up working in the Congo on behalf of French intelligence. His testimony was accepted despite its vagueness and inconsistencies, lack of corroboration, and his suffering from mental problems sufficient to disqualify him from trial--but not from testifying before the Tribunal, free of cross-examination. within two weeks of this disqualification from trial. This and other witness evidence suffered from serious abuse of the plea-bargaining process whereby witnesses could receive mitigating sentences if they cooperated sufficiently with the prosecution. 
It is also noteworthy how many relatively impartial observers in or near Srebrenica in July 1995 didnt see any evidence of massacres, including the members of the Dutch forces present in the safe area and people like Henry Wieland, the chief UN investigator into alleged human rights abuses, who could find no eyewitnesses to atrocities after five days of interviewing among the 20,000 Srebrenica survivors gathered at the Tuzla airport refugee camp. 
thought you might be interested relative to the strategy used that you mentioned.
"If there had been a premeditated plan of genocide, instead of attacking in only one direction, from the south to the north - which left the hypothesis to escape to the north and west, the Serbs would have established a siege in order to ensure that no one escaped. The UN observation posts to the north of the enclave were never disturbed and remained in activity after the end of the military operations. There are obviously mass graves in the outskirts of Srebrenica as in the rest of ex-Yugoslavia where combat has occurred, but there are no grounds for the campaign which was mounted, nor the numbers advanced by CNN.
The mass graves are filled by a limited number of corpses from both sides, the consequence of heated battle and combat and not the result of a premeditated plan of genocide, as occurred against the Serbian populations in Krajina, in the Summer of 1995, when the Croatian army implemented the mass murder of all Serbians found there. In this instance, the media maintained an absolute silence, despite the fact that the genocide occurred over a three month period. The objective of Srebrenica was ethnic cleansing and not genocide, unlike what happened in Krajina, in which although there was no military action, the Croatian army decimated villages.
The "correct report" is located on the Republika Srpska's website: The Events In And Around Srebrenica Between 10th And 19th July 1995.
There's also the Dutch NIOD report Srebrenica - A 'Safe' Area, which gives an overview of the enclave from the start of the war through it's overrunning by Serb forces.
What you're trying to bring to the table is revisionist crap, plain and simple. Are you seriously trying to forward Edward Herman, who co-authored the reprehensible "After the Cataclysm" with Noam Chomsky as a reputable source?
Denying Srebrenica is small potatoes to someone like Herman who's taken the position that the Vietnamese Communist and Khmer Rouge mass murder campaigns were "overreported" and that Pol Pot only killed 25,000 Cambodians. 7,000 Bosnians? Hell, that's just a rounding error in Herman's calculus of denial.
Can I get you to endorse the "Living Marxism" Trnopolje report while you're at it? Might as well go for broke if you're going to get into bed with the idiots Tom.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, the United States government, in direct opposition to your egregiously stupid position on the matter has stated the following, for the record, through the US Embassy's Charge d'Affairs in Belgrade, Roderick Moore:
It is an indisputable fact that, ten years ago, Serb forces under the command of Ratko Mladic massacred almost 8000 Bosnians in the enclave of Srebrenica. This atrocity has been documented through thousands of testimonials by witnesses and relatives, through the discovery of numerous mass graves, and even through last year's admission by the government of the Republika Srpska that Serb forces conducted the killings.
You see that Tom? Indisputable. Loosely translated it means that only a fool would attempt to deny it.
But then, as Srebrenica has become something of an IQ test, it's not surprising to see what side of the issue you come down on, is it.
Lastly, the OSCE Voter's Registers from 1997 and 1998 produced 9 matches with the consolodated ICRC and PHR Srebrenica Missing List, which when added to the 6 individuals found alive since 1997 left 7,475 persons dead or missing, and that 7,475 stands to this day as the best estimate of Srebrenica related dead or missing. Accounting for Genocide: How many were killed in Srebrenica? (.doc)
You're nothing but a disinformation vector hired by the losers in the Balkan's race wars Tom. As soon as you step outside of Kosovo you're in over your head, reduced to indiscriminately clinging to whatever rotten branches you can reach as the tide of history washes you down the gutter.
Scraped! and Rejected......
It is not indisputable just because you say so. I will challenge it as you are vastly outnumbered by the true accounts and not the spinning accounts. The entire venture to the Balkans was built on gross exaggerations and in some cases, fabrications. It's called an official spin and I have a person called General Enver Hadzihasanovic that disputes your version and Indisputable facts. Granted, in his testimony he claims 8,000 to 9,000 killed but then says that it's not consistent: Notice the "Certainty figure"....
Your reference, comes from the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade for Goodness sake. That's not an unbiased source. Where do you think the spin is coming from in the first place, in addition to the Muslims side. We supported the Muslims in Operation Flash, therefore, our spin will be in favor of the Bosnian Muslims, which by the way, included Muzzies from the ME. This is basic politics 101.....
I see that Hop became upset when I mentioned he highest rank was of a Specialist (E4) in the National Guard, a non-NCO. Since he couldn't handle day-day life as a 11Bravo, he went into the Guard and even they deemed him unworthy after a few years.
I love how Hoopie thinks that sticking in that "significant" qualifier does anything but prove that some Bosnian Jihadists did go to Afghanistan and/or Iraq.
But it is no wonder that the numbers might be small as we all know they are keeping the European-looking Bosnian Jihadists where they are so that they can be used against Europe and the US when the time is right.
The besieged forces could have easily defended the enclave,
(FR posters note:) I have been there to the Sreb mountains. You CAN NOT use vehicles at all! There is no passage, non defensible nor in an offensive nature. Only down in the town itself or on the roads. From the raods, they are like a salamander, winding and you can't visual at all. When I get my site back up before I head out, you will see for yourself.
Being a Tanker, I know this from tactical analyzation. (end of FR posters note)
at least for much longer, if they had been well led. It proved convenient to let the enclave fall in this manner. Since the enclave was doomed to fall, it was preferable to let this happen in the most beneficial manner possible. But this would only have been viable if Sarajevo had political initiative and freedom of movement, which would never occur at the negotiating table. The deliberate fall of the enclave might appear to be an act of terrible machiavellian orchestration, but the truth is that the Sarajevo government had much to gain, as proved to be the case. Srebrenica was not a zero-sum game. The Serbians won a military victory but with highly negative political side-effects, which helped result in their definitive ostracization.
We might add a final curious note. As the UN observation posts were attacked, and proved impossible to maintain, the forces withdrew. The barricades set up by the Muslim army did not let the troops past. These troops were not treated as soldiers fleeing from the front line, but rather with a sordid differentiation.
The Muslims not only refused to fight to defend themselves, they forced others to fight on their behalf. In one instance, the commander of a Dutch vehicle decided after conversations with ABiH to pass the barrier. A Muslim soldier threw a hand grenade whose fragments mortally wounded him. The only UN soldier to die in the Srebrenica offensive, was killed by the Muslims.
for your info
Mr. Hop is a pancake specialist with pathological tendencies......
Mr. Hop is a pancake specialist with pathological tendencies......
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