The Founding Fathers were Deists, So Is Mitt Romney's Mormonism keeping you from voting for him?

http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm ^

[klimeckg]

Thomas Paine and the Age of Reason

Thomas Paine is sometimes grouped with the Founding Fathers. Your daily newspaper might reinforce this view with editorials like this:

Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Paine and most of our other patriarchs were at best deists, believing in the unmoved mover of Aristotle, but not the God of the Old and New Testaments.[1]

It would be difficult to name a single one of the Founding Fathers who approved of Paine's Age of Reason, his famous tract attacking religion in general and evangelical Christianity in particular. Even less-than-evangelicals like Benjamin Franklin and the "Unitarians" all denounced Paine's book.

Before Paine published his Age of Reason, he sent a manuscript copy to Benjamin Franklin, seeking his thoughts. Notice Franklin's strong and succinct reply, and keep in mind that those on all sides of the religion question would concede Franklin to be one of the least religious Founders:

I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion that . . . the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits into the wind, spits in his own face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? . . .

[allmendream]

Franklin was correct. Publication of the work did heap scorn upon Thomas Paine. If not for his vehemence against religion (his greatest defect) he would be counted as among the greatest of our founding fathers.

We were and remain a people of strong religious faith; even the Deists and Unitarians didn’t like their most cherished beliefs in the goodness of the author of the Universe and the idea of Divine providence attacked.

[RKV]

No. And Mormonism is not the same as Deism. I’m a Deist, not a Mormon and I know the difference - I don’t need to wear magic underwear!

[Mr. Brightside]

So Is Mitt Romney's Mormonism keeping you from voting for him?

Mormonism is not responsible for Romney's problems.

For me it's his on-again-off-again positions on abortion, guns, global warming, taxes, Reagan years, gay rights, etc.

I don't think there one position he has not changed since he decided to run for president and become a conservative.

[madison10]

They weren’t all deists...the whole discussion starts out with a faulty premise.

George Washington most especially was not a “deist.”

[cripplecreek]

No, the fact that I get called a bigot for questioning him is keeping me from voting for him.

[AppyPappy]

Only two or three were Deists. Nice try but no cookie

[outofstyle]

Forget it. I have had this discussion with many "conservative" friends. Those that are honest admit to me that the "Mormon thing" is an issue.

I am dispirited.

[Ghost of Philip Marlowe]

You are right, of course. But that sort of knowledge is down way too deep for most voters to care about (especially if they went through public schools and have not been obsessed for compensating for that intellectually fatal flaw, as I).

And of those who were Deists, many regularly attended a church of traditional denomination.

[rhombus]

People complain about his changed positions. But now that it’s all but over can we be honest? Almost all of the candidates have changed or at the very least modified their positions over time. Damn... so have I but I digress. From the many anti-Romney things I’ve read on this site, I think some might have voted against him because of his religion but I think a greater number voted against him because 1) he is rich and 2) he’s a damn fast-talkin’ Yankee. ;-)

[bert]

why is being Mormon worse than being Catholic

[klimeckg]

I, a born again christian, am curious if many people are not looking at him for this one reason. Because I am torn. I haven’t a clue what to do. I dislike Huckabee, especially after today when he should have clearly announced he can’t win. Huckabee is being paid off with promises from McCain. And I can’t seem to get behind McCain, becuase he is a liar and a an isle reacher! I want someone who will show the hand to the Demorats! What to do?

[Anti-Hillary]

Mormonism is most definately Mitt’s problem in the South. If you are a Republican and you can’t get the South behind you, you are toast.

PS. I am Bible believing Christian who voted for Mitt. but believe me it’s a BIG problem for him .

[FormerLib]

Pure drek.

Most of the Founding Fathers associated themselves with Christian denominations. Only a handful were deists.

Some lies never become true regardless of the number of times they are repeated.

[YHAOS]

beep, for later.

[Tigen]

Good try-YOU LISTEN YOU DECIDE take ya ten minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0rcAByKUFM&NR=1

[klimeckg]

Some say Huckabee is staying in the race to block Romney and that Huckabee hates Mormons.

[klimeckg]

It’s not

[Brilliant]

Romney does not wear his religion on his sleeve, as does Huckabee. His religion has never been an issue in his public life. It’s only an issue now because Huckabee and certain of his followers have made it an issue in their own minds.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Nope, his being a sleazy, lying liberal who killed the MA GOP sealed the deal for me.

[maine-iac7]

The Founding Fathers were Deists, So Is Mitt Romney's Mormonism keeping you from voting for him?

Not sure what the inference is here?

Is it meant to convey that Mormons - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints = are Deists?

If so, it is in error...

http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r102/tuck7er/th_laugh3.gif"> lds.org

First, go to the source -

"We bear testimony, ... that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son. "

Doesn't sound Deist to me...

My apologies to the Mormon Basher Brigade that will soon be swooping in for this inconvenient truth about the beliefs of the Church. (Actually, I lie. I do not apologize)

[kingu]

That Romney’s a liberal is what prevents me from voting for him. Republican debate: I like mandates, mandates work - if my choices are only big government liberals, I’m not going to compound that by choosing to vote for a north-east big government liberal.

[Brilliant]

Is there any politician in this race who has not flip-flopped? As far as I can tell, the only ones who did not were Fred and Giuliani, both of whom are enjoying retirement.

[Blogger]

I am a Baptist and believe Romney is part of a cult. Still, it would not keep me from voting for him.

And, most of the founding fathers were CHRISTIANS not Deists. Some were deists. Not most.

[Andy'smom]

I think that’s true.

[narses]

+

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[tear gas]

Trust that the Lord will deliver to us the president that we deserve. The last two times He gave us George W. Bush. Just trust.

[wrench]

why is being Mormon worse than being Catholic.......?

Well, for one, Cathilics aren’t baptising every deceased man woman and child into their “religion”, all without consent of family members.

Catholics do not forbid a father or grand father from seeing his child get married if that father or grandfather isn’t a “perfect” Catholic.

Catholicism doesen’t even remotely resemble a cult.

[padre35]

Nope, I would vote for Mitt in .00000001 seconds, but in NC, it won’t be until March that we have the opportunity.

[Just mythoughts]

I supported Duncan Hunter.

I would ask you, is there anything that Romney has done said or hinted that he would in any shape fashion or form require you to become a member of his church. Whatever your answer is to that question it the answer to what to do. And I do not need to know the answer.

[purpleraine]

non-sequitor

[Starwolf]

why is being Mormon worse than being Catholic

Because most Christians consider it disingenuous at best when Mormons claim to be Christian. Our Mormon brethren here will disagree with that position, but it is a widely held one.

IMO Mitt would be better off being Buddhist than Mormon in due to that.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

NE LIBERAL FLIP FLOPPER is reason not to vote for him!

[Captain Rhino]

Here, here!

George Washington’s Prayer for the Nation

Written at Newburg, June 8, 1783, and sent to the governors of all the states.

“Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy Holy protection: that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally, that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.

Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen.”

A real Deist, that Washington. Yeah, sure.

[so_real]

They weren’t all deists...the whole discussion starts out with a faulty premise. George Washington most especially was not a “deist.”

Faulty premise ... ditto that ... and Washington is a favorite historical topic of mine :-)

[klimeckg]

No, it’s meant to say who cares what the President believes in.

[maine-iac7]

I am a Baptist and believe Romney is part of a cult.

There's a wide chasm between 'belief' and 'fact. Maybe you should do some research on your own instead of swallowing whole what you are taught?

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"

From the web site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at:

lds.org

"We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son. "

[redstateconfidential]

but I think a greater number voted against him because 1) he is rich and 2) he’s a damn fast-talkin’ Yankee. ;-
Populism is alive and well in the South, but the evangelicals would have nothin’ to do with him down here in the south! Magic underwear is somethin’ you save for a date night!

[klimeckg]

This is good, I always thought that the majority of the FF’s were Deists. I think I read it in one of my wonderful 6th grade public segregated controlled middle-school. :-) What do we know about McCain’s faith?

[JoshM99]

You got that right.

[maine-iac7]

Catholics do not forbid a father or grand father from seeing his child get married if that father or grandfather isn’t a “perfect” Catholic.

They will, however, forbid a Mormon from attending the baptism of a grandchild in a Catholic Church - real Christian of them

[razorbak]

The Ploys of Revisionists
When revisionists attempt to concoct support for their usually unpopular viewpoint, they often vilify fgures — past or present — who embrace the position they reject. This tactic was evident in 1995’s onslaught of media articles claiming that America’s success was due to its long-standing tradition of secularism.

For example, Steven Morris’s Los Angeles Times article, “America’s Unchristian Beginnings” [3] (picked up by wire services and reprinted in scores of newspapers across the nation), was loaded with deliberate falsehoods to “prove” America’s Founders were purely secular. For instance, concerning John Adams, Morris claimed:

Late in life, he wrote, “Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!!!’ ”
The Rest of the Story
This statement appears in Adams’s letter to Thomas Jefferson on April 19, 1817, in which Adams recounted a conversation between Joseph Cleverly and Lemuel Bryant — a schoolmaster and a minister he had known. Disgusted by the petty religious bickering displayed by those two, Adams declared to Jefferson:
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!” But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not ft to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell. [4]
In reality, revisionists like Steven Morris (and especially those from the Society of Separationists or the American Atheist Society) deliberately reverse Adams’s position. Not only did Adams declare that it would be “fanatical” to desire a world without religion (and that such a world would be “hell”), but on May 5, 1817, Jefferson wrote back to Adams and said that he agreed!

What makes revisionism so effective is that few citizens actually take time to confrm revisionists’ claims or to proclaim to the public the real facts.

Speaking for Themselves
Since the goal of Morris and others like him is to “prove” that people of faith have no precedent for being involved in politics, he characterizes the Founders’ general religious beliefs with the same false summary that most revisionists — both in academia and media — often proclaim:

The early presidents and patriots were generally deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the relevance of the Bible.
Yet, the Founders’ own declarations in their last wills and testaments [5] disprove those assertions and speak loud and clear that the great majority of our Founders were indeed believers in Jesus Christ. For example:
First of all, I . . . rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. Samuel Adams, Signer of the Declaration

To my Creator I resign myself, humbly confding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution

I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ. Gabriel Duvall, U.S. Supreme Court Justice; selected as delegate to Constitutional Convention

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. Patrick Henry

I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by his beloved Son. . . . Blessed be his holy name. John Jay, Original Chief-Justice U.S. Supreme Court

I am constrained to express my adoration of . . . the Author of my existence . . . [for] His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. Robert Treat Paine, Signer of the Declaration

I think it proper here not only to subscribe to . . . doctrines of the Christian religion . . . but also, in the bowels of a father’s affection, to exhort and charge them [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness. Richard Stockton, Signer of the Declaration
These wills represent only a few examples from many with the identical tone. Furthermore, the personal writings of numerous other Founders contain equally strong declarations. Notice:

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God. [6] John Quincy Adams

Now to the triune God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore ­p; Amen.[7] Gunning Bedford, Signer of the Constitution

You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature — the absolute necessity of a change of heart, and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ ­p; of salvation thro’ His meritorious righteousness only — and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. [8] Elias Boudinot, Revolutionary Officer and President of the Continental Congress (to his daughter)

You do well to learn . . . above all the religion of Jesus Christ. [9] George Washington

[D]on’t forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. [10] Jacob Broom, Signer of the Constitution (to his son)

On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. [11] Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. [12] Thomas Jefferson

I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice. [13] James Iredell, U.S. Supreme Court Justice under President George Washington

My only hope of salvation is in the infnite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! [14] Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. [15] Roger Sherman, Signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution

I shall now entreat . . . you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for “there is no salvation in any other” [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. [16] John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration
There are many other examples.

Summary
The evidence is clear; the revisionists are wrong. Although there was some anti-organized-religion sentiment among the Founders (e.g., Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, Charles Lee, Henry Dearborn), those with such views were a small minority and, in fact, often were strongly criticized by others for those beliefs.

It is time that Christians retake the academic high ground. When historically false editorials or letters-to-the-editor are written, or when call-in programs make reckless charges, we need to stand up and confront those errors. This will provide an opportunity for those who are undecided on the issue of public religious expressions to formulate their opinions from accurate information rather than from revisionist trash. [David Barton, WallBuilders.com]

[muawiyah]

Some of the Founders were animists.

[longtermmemmory]

not this diest nonsense again

[BIV]

I agree. I think I would believe in an activist God had I survived Brooklyn as G. Washington and our troops did.
Of course, the degree of interest in whether a deistic view is reflected in the Constitution is related to the number of Americans who, actually, concern themselves with what our Founding Fathers intended. In the political world (as opposed to people who just don’t care),this is the “living-breathing” constitution crowd; this crowd tends to infect the politic with temporally expedient views clearly threating to the Republic.
Obviously, interpretations of the Constitution will change as judges and the times change, but the change to our basic law must be no greater than necessary to preserve its vitality.
That is why the gun case would be funny if it were not serious. Imagine the lawyer’s difficulty in convincing any alert individual that United States citizens don’t enjoy rights that are written with utter clarity in the Constitution, but they do have rights located in a lower left corner of an invisible penumbra of rights as real as ghosts.

[org.whodat]

Only two or three were Deists. Nice try but no cookie

True! you get one little star.

[redstateconfidential]

There was a lot of prejudice in the south, cuz “Romney wurz a Mor-man”. I heard it, even heard a few preachers rail against him, honestly , would a Mor-man do more damage than Whatever in the Heck, McCain/ Hillary / Obama Hussein is?

[Free Vulcan]

Yup. From Dr. M.E. Bradford's A Worthy Company

"In addition, with no more than five exceptions (and perhaps no more than three) they (the Framers) were orthodox members of one of the established Christian communions, 29 Anglicans, 16-18 Calvinists, two Methodists, two Lutherans, two Catholics, one lapsed Quaker and sometime Anglican, and one open Deist, Benjamin Franklin, who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for open prayer, and contributed to all denominations."

[klimeckg]

Then why have this website, if all we get are posts from arrogant @#%^&YYTY!

[redstateconfidential]

They worshiped Rock- Paper- Scissors? Or they made cartoons?