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Posted on 02/08/2008 4:37:44 AM PST by davidosborne
Since it appears likely that the GOP has forced John McCain on us.. I think it is fair to take a very critical look at him.. and anticipate how he might be destroyed by the left in the General Election.. and why MANY of us on the right just can't bring ourseleves to vote for him anyway..
David
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Any comments or suggestions regarding how the GOP plans to defend John McCain when all this “STUFF” comes up in the race for the White House?
John McCain’s Collaborations:
During his 23rd mission over Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, Lt. Commander John McCain was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
To relate the event, McCain later recalled that he was “flying right over the heart of Hanoi in a dive at about 4,500 feet, when a Russian missile the size of a telephone pole came up—the sky was full of them—and blew the right wing off my Skyhawk dive bomber. It went into an inverted, almost straight-down spin. -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
“I pulled the ejection handle, and was knocked unconscious by the force of the ejection—the air speed was about 500 knots. I didn’t realize it at the moment, but I had broken my right leg around the knee, my right arm in three places and my left arm. I regained consciousness just before I landed by parachute in a lake right in the center of Hanoi, one they called the Western Lake. My helmet and my oxygen mask had been blown off. “I hit the water and sank to the bottom . . . I did not feel any pain at the time, and I was able to rise to the surface. I took a breath of air and started sinking again.” -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
After bobbing up and down, he was eventually pulled from the water by Vietnamese who had swam out to get him.
A mob gathered on shore and McCain was bayoneted in the foot and his shoulder was smashed with a rifle butt. He was put on a truck and taken to Hanoi’s main prison.
After being periodically slapped around for “three or four days” by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, “O.K., I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.” -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital normally unavailable to American POWS. (U.S. government documents)
“Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.” Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.
Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.
One report dated read, “To a question of the correspondent, McCain answered: ‘My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam.’”
In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.
Through the Freedom of Information Act, the U.S. Veteran Dispatch acquired a declassified Department of Defense (DOD) transcript of an interview prominent French television reporter Francois Chalais had with McCain.
Chalais told of his private interview with POW McCain in a series titled Life in Hanoi, which was aired in Europe. In the series, Chalais said his meeting with McCain was “a meeting which will leave its mark on my life.”
“My meeting with John Sidney McCain was certainly one of those meetings which will affect me most profoundly for the rest of my life. I had asked the North Vietnamese authorities to allow me to personally interrogate an American prisoner. They authorized me to do so. When night fell, they took me-—without any precautions or mystery—to a hospital near the Gia Lam airport reserved for the [North Vietnamese] military. (passage omitted) The officer who receives me begins: I ask you not to ask any questions of political nature. If this man replies in a way unfavorable to us, they will not hesitate to speak of ‘brainwashing’ and conclude that we threatened him.
“’This John Sidney McCain is not an ordinary prisoner. His father is none other than Admiral Edmond John McCain, commander in chief of U.S. naval forces in Europe. (passage omitted)’”
“. . . Many visitors came to talk to me [John McCain]. Not all of it was for interrogation. Once a famous North Vietnamese writer-an old man with a Ho Chi Minh beard-came to my room, wanting to know all about Ernest Hemingway . . . Others came to find out about life in the United States. They figured because my father had such high military rank that I was of the royalty or governing circle . . . One of the men who came to see me, whose picture I recognized later, was Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, the hero of Dienbienphu.” U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
Vietnamese doctors operate (early December 1967) on McCain’s Leg. Later that month, six weeks after he was shot down, McCain was taken from the hospital and delivered to a POW camp, Room No. 11 in “The Plantation” and into the hands of two other U.S. POWs, Air Force majors George “Bud” Day and Norris Overly. They helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself. —Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
McCain, Day and Overly, were relocated (early January 1968) to “another end of the camp, a place we called ‘the Corn Crib.’” A group of “obviously senior” Communist Party members visited and talked with McCain. —Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
Overly was offered and he accepted early release. He was released February 16. —Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
Overly was released with David Matheny and John Black. “They were the first three POW’s to be released by the North Vietnamese.” U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
In March, Day was “relocated” to another cell.—Faith of My Fathers by John McCain. A month later, McCain was “moved into another building, the largest cell block in the camp, ‘the Warehouse.’” Day was moved to another prison (the Zoo). McCain began solitary confinement.—Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
For nearly two years, McCain’s communist handlers kept him isolated from other U.S. prisoners. Because they considered him a “special prisoner,” McCain became the target of intense indoctrination and psychological programs the communists had perfected during the Korean War.
The communists were very much aware that POW McCain would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish his famous military family and they considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then “turning” him. McCain’s handlers kept meticulous records of his behavior, including his personal strengths, weaknesses and any special favors he may have accepted while under the pressure of isolation.
McCain’s interrogators considered him a “special prisoner.” They believed that because he came from a “royal family,” he would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important military or government job.
Because he was kept isolated from other U.S. prisoners during these years of captivity, no one, except McCain and his captors, know exactly to what he was subjected or how he responded. Most information in the public record detailing McCain’s experience with the North Vietnamese during this time frame came from McCain and McCain only.
“In May of 1968, I [McCain] was interviewed by two North Vietnamese generals at separate times.” U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
McCain claimed (page 133 of The Nightingale’s Song, by Robert Timberg) that he was first offered early release (parole) in late June, 1968. He said that after months of interrogation he was “summoned” to a room that had soft chairs and a glass table on which were “cookies, a pot of tea, and cigarettes.”
He said “Major Bai, known to the prisoners as the Cat,” was waiting for him. He said “a second Vietnamese known as the Rabbit, stood by to serve as translator.”
McCain said that as he “helped himself” to the cookies, tea and cigarettes, the Cat began speaking through the translator. He said they talked about “his father, other members of his family, the war.” McCain said that after about two of talk, the Cat asked him if he wanted to be released. The Cat, according to McCain, told him to go back to his cell and think about it.—The Nightingale’s Song.
McCain said that three nights later the Cat sent for him and again asked him if he wanted to go home. McCain said he answered No. —The Nightingale’s Song
A week later, according to McCain, he was taken to a room in which the camp commander, who the prisoners had nicknamed Slopehead, was waiting. McCain said ten guards and an interrogator nicked named The Prick was also in the room. —The Nightingale’s Song
McCain said the guards charged into him beating and kicking him until he ‘lay on the floor, bloody, arms and legs throbbing, ribs cracked, several teeth broken off at the gumline.” The Vietnamese, according to McCain, wanted him to confess to being a “black criminal.” —The Nightingale’s Song
McCain said he was next introduced for the first time to the “torture ropes.” He said the torture went on for several days before he broke and agreed to write and sign a confession that he was a “black criminal.” McCain said that he was moved to another building away from the other POWs. —The Nightingale’s Song
McCain said (page 136) that he was so distraught because he had signed the statement that he attempted suicide but was stopped when a guard burst into the room. —The Nightingale’s Song
In August 1968, other POWs learned for the first time that John McCain had been taken prisoner (page 137) after Charlie Plumb and Kay Russell figured out that the “mystery” prisoner in a neighboring cell is McCain. —The Nightingale’s Song
A September 13, 1968, cable from Averell Harriman, U.S. ambassador-at-large, to the State Department confirmed that McCain’s captors had offered him early release, but that he had refused. The cable reported that, according to the Vietnamese, “Commander McCain feared that if he was released before the war is over, President [Lyndon] Johnson might ‘cause difficulties’ for his father because people will wonder if McCain had been brainwashed.” Harriman speculated that instead, McCain was abiding by the Code of Conduct.— The Phoenix New Times March 25, 1999
June 1969 - “Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral. . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.” New York Daily News, June 5, 1969
“The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the Geneva Convention.” The Washington Post
In December, McCain was moved out of “The Plantation” and into a “one man cell” in the “Hanoi Hilton.”. On Christmas Eve, McCain chatted with the Cat. They talked about McCain refusing early release. —The Nightingale’s Song
“There was pressure to see American antiwar delegations, which seemed to increase as the time went on. But, there wasn’t any torture.
In January 1970, I [McCain] was taken to a quiz with ‘The Cat.’ He told me that he wanted me to see a foreign guest.” U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
A declassified DOD document reports an interview between POW McCain and Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist who was living in Cuba at the time. The interview was published in the Havana Granma in January 1970.
According to the DOD report, the meeting between Barral and McCain (which was photographed by the Vietnamese) took place away from the prison at the office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in Hanoi. During the meeting, POW McCain sipped coffee and ate oranges and cakes with his interrogator.
While talking with Barral, McCain seriously violated the military Code of Conduct by failing to evade answering questions “to the utmost” of his ability when he, according to the DOD report, helped Barral by answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in school.
1973 - McCain was released from the Hilton on March 15, 1973.
Two Former POWs Say They Doubt McCain Was Physically Abused
1999 - March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon “Swede” Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain’s senior ranking officers (SRO’s), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
“Between the two of us, it’s our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as “The Plantation”],” Larson says. “. . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted’s knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from.”
In 1993, during one of his many trips back to Hanoi, McCain asked the Vietnamese not to make public the records they hold pertaining to returned U.S. POWs.
GASP!!! You...you mean your grand plan to deny McCain the nomination by supporting Huckabee because Duncan Hunter told you to didn't work? Please tell me what to do Oh Mighty Pundit. Better yet, tell me what Duncan Hunter wants me to do. My mind is currently in the Mush Mode awaiting your wise molding.
The Left can systematically dismantle McCain without having to touch on any of this.
I guess I was taking a worst case scenario... I think it is fair to bring up any and all potential “dirt” so that the GOP electorate can change course before it is too late... I would have posted this sooner but I really wanted to wait until it was likely that McCain was going to be the nomminee.. I hate discussing “dirt” on our side... but its going to come out sooner or later....
Huckbee will get beat in the next couple of primary's. If he doesn't drop out and endorse McCain he may try 3rd party and my original thought that he is Bill and Hillarys stalking horse will be true.
PJ-Comix,
It seems that EVERY post of yours attacks the messenger not the message..... thanks for taking the time post your thoughts and comments my FRiend :)
David
Exactly what was the GOP?
normy,
I don’t think it will be done blatently like the swiftboaters did to Kerry.. but the potential is HUGE.
by deffinition the “GOP” is any U.S. Citizen that particiapted in the Republican Primary.. whether actually conservative or not..
....deny McCain the nomination by supporting Huckabee
LOL, my FRiend it appears that it IS Romney who supported McCain.... check your facts my FRiend..
McCain has no such public record nor does he have hundreds of fellow soldiers from his unit to testify against his actions. Any attempt to pull this on McCain will backfire so badly, with all the footage of McCain in prison, with his injuries, with him calling them gooks 30 years later. No McCain will knock this out of the park.
I think the deep critical analysis of John McCain will be far deeper and hit far harder in the lead up to the general election my FRiend...
I understand.... but poltics being what they are.. there is enough stuff out there to keep McCain on the DEFENSIVE in a presidential campaign.. and that is NOT a formula for victory.. just my 2 cents worth my FRiend
They won't...only because they know they don't need to. They will wipe the floor with McCain. (Obama will as well, if it comes to that.)
Hillary has already begun attacking him on the economy.
The really sad part will come when McCain's "friends" in the MSM turn on him full force. McCain will feel betrayed and his angry, unstable side will be fully revealed to the national audience then. He will be portrayed as an old, mean, unhealthy, mentaly imbalanced Washington insider...when they're not attacking him on the issues.
McCain will be spiteful and will go down flailing in all directions. The only mystery left is how big an anchor he'll be on congressional and local races.
The left is salivating.
I once met with Col Guy in March 1987 at his home near San Antonio. During the course of that hour, he spoke very harshly about McCain and his reprehensible conduct while a POW. Col Guy related that he filed a report shortly after his release containing these allegations, but it was ignored by the DOD.
Col Guy is probably spinning in his grave that McCain is the anointed nominee.
fair analysis and prediction my FRiend
I'm not attacking the messenger. In fact I am placing my mind full of mush into your unerring hands for molding. Guide me Yoda Osborne so that I may see the light!
very intereresting...
BTTT
you are funny.. I gotta give that to ya my FRiend... anyway.. I am no Yoda, just a fellow freeper :)
Actually it was the Grand Old Party.
Do ping me when they come back from the wilderness?
I don't know if that will happen this side of the Tribulation my FRiend.. :)
Bump
Once a hero, not always a hero...or patriot.
This is the traitor John McCain chose to be his "Hispanic Outreach Director." Hernandez is a verified traitor. Born in Dallas he decided as an adult to become a dual-national Mexican citizen. His last job was serving as Mexican President Vicente Fox's "American Reconquista Director."
Hernandez believes all Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in the USA should become dual citizens and consider themselves Mexicans first, "to the 8th generation."
The "New American Pioneers" proclaimed in his book are the illegal alien invaders he urges to become settlers in the USA.
And this is the man McCain chose for his "Hispanic Outreach Director." In the past week he was asked about this choice, and he said he chose Hernandez because he agrees with his positions.
Yet out of the other side of his mouth he says "He has heard us" and he will "Secure the border first."
Juan Shamnesty McCain is precisely a treacherous liar.
I wish us well.
I certainly did not intend for this thread to be a re-hash of the John Kerry swiftboating.. I was simply suggesting that John McCain is not squeaky clean either.. and if we make him our Presidential Nomminee, I am considering sitting out the election.. as will many of my FRiends..
Forget the Presidency, a Democrat will win, but there is the House and that Nanny and the Democrats sitting duck. Did you see the latest polls? There is only so much time and money for a campaign, I vote we put it all into winning back the House so we at least have a chance of stopping the Democrat in the White House.
The beauty of working the House is the national drive by media can't focus easily on House races, too many races, to localized. At least no where near the way they can the Presidential race.
That's my plan and I am sticking too it. Not one dime to the RNC, all donations will go direct to the candidate of my choice, true grass roots, under the radar.
Ditto.
This is the man John McCain chose to be his "Hispanic Outreach Director." Hernandez is a verified traitor. Born in Dallas he decided as an adult to become a dual-national Mexican citizen. His last job was serving as Mexican President Vicente Fox's "American Reconquista Director."
Hernandez believes all Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in the USA should become dual citizens and consider themselves Mexicans first, "to the 8th generation."
The "New American Pioneers" proclaimed in his book are the illegal alien invaders he urges to become settlers in the USA.
And this is the man McCain chose for his "Hispanic Outreach Director." In the past week he was asked about this choice, and he said he chose Hernandez because he agrees with his positions.
Yet out of the other side of his mouth he says "He has heard us" and he will "Secure the border first."
Juan Shamnesty McCain is precisely a treacherous liar.
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VERY GOOD STRATEGY... I think we NEED a strong conservative Majority in the HOUSE and SENATE to keep the HildaBEAST in check for the next 4 years
it appears the John McCain is "reaching accross the aisle"
Yes, don’t get mad, get even, get the House ... the Democrats are sitting ducks and the drive bys can’t easily defend the attack. Maximum ROI.
We need to get back in the game more here, post #18 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1967003/posts?page=18#18
To: davidosborne
Can anyone explain to me WHY are people voting for McPain?
If he’s the nominee we lose. The Republicans better get busy and find a combination that can beat either Hillary or Oprah! Of what’s available, I like the Huckabee/Hunter combo. I really liked Hunter the most because if we don’t stop the border hemorrhage this country will fail economically. The safety in our homes and cities that we’ve known is all but over. Take a walk through a city like San Antonio and you will get a very good picture of where we’re going at this rate.
233 posted on 02/06/2008 8:21:05 AM EST by WestCoastGal (88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 88 in 08)
Another reason I might actually vote for the HildaBEAST is that I would rather we lose the WhiteHouse by a HUGE margin, than lose it narrowly.. <— If we all rally behind John McCain we will be PUSHING our party further and further to the LEFT... and that is UNACCEPTABLE IMHO..
I'm not thrilled about our choice either, but I don't think this will be a bombshell like you do.
Agree, by going for the House, we neither slide to the left nor end up with an election debacle.
I am not going to vote for President, just leave it blank. But will be voting in Congressional and local elections. I just can’t stomach McCain and his lying.
ONE reason I might actually vote for the HildaBEAST is that I would rather we lose the WhiteHouse by a HUGE margin, than lose it narrowly.. <— If we all rally behind John McCain we will be PUSHING our party further and further to the LEFT... and that is UNACCEPTABLE IMHO..
But at some point I have to draw the line and say I'm not willing to cause another Perot event. We're set up exactly as we were in 1992 - We were not thrilled with President Bush and many of us (my husband and I included) voted our protest vote for Perot. We got bill.
I am 100% positive hillary is anti-Military. McCain isn't.
I feel that at least one single issue I have will be handled well with McCain, even if he throws us to the wolves in every other aspect. He will look out for our Military and Hillary won't.
Of course I wish he was a conservative, but no one running is. I will hold my nose and carry a barf bag with me, but I will vote for him before I will split the vote and guarantee Hillary in office.
Then maybe, hopefully, we can find a real man to run in 2012.
You don’t need to split the vote.. VOTE FOR THE HILDABEAST or OBAMA !! when the votes are counted it will be a clear message to the GOP... but we HAVE to put ALL our money into the HOUSE/SENATE races to make sure we at least take control of CONGRESS.. this will be the wake up call that the GOP needs...
I don’t think the Republican Party is DEAD... but it IS in serious need of some “shock thereby” and conservatives voting for the HILDAbeast or OBAMA is EXACTLY the right medicine to bring the party back to life again.. but in order for this to work we HAVE to win the house/senate.. that is why I think we need to really make sure we do that.. we do this by sending all our money to the conservative candidates and NOT to the RNC
They'll do about as good a job as they did with Bush's nomination of Harriet Miers for Supreme Court Justice. McCain's FBI files were among those taken by Hillary while she was in the White House, and they go clear back to McCain's Kemper Marley days. And there's little doubt that Hillary will use them.
David...
I’m worried that you’ve jumped the shark.
Attacking his service in Vietnam is low.
How, pray tell, is either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama, both socialists and pacifists, going to attack his honorable service to our country?
Was he ADM Stockdale, certainly not, but then again there was only one Stockdale.
This kind of claptrap gives credence to the statement made by Clint Eastwood yesterday on Cavuto that many conservatives are masochistic.
For the record: Reagan spoke for Ford at the ‘76 convention, more than a year AFTER he gave his “Let the go their way” speech at CPAC. He camaigned for Ford. He wanted a GOP win ernestly. He didn’t compromise his principles, he continued to fight for them. But when the party choice was made he fought for victory and sought change from within.
exactly...
I am not attacking him..... I am being very blunt about what “dirt” will come up in the Presidential race and a reality check as to what we are up against.. I wish McCain DID NOT enter the race...
The answer to Clinton/Obama will be a short and simple - how dare you.
How dare you who never served a day in your life spread rumors such as this when the overwhelming evidence from those who served with Senator McCain and those who were held with him in Hanoi say that his service was honorable.
For the record - when training to face interrogations officers are told quite plainly that everyone breaks. Part of the training is to steel yourself for the next round - to hold out each time as long as possible and to not let the fact that you broke previously affect your resolve.
Was hero after war hero after war hero will step to the microphone to defend his service and to castigate the dem machine if they even whisper such things. Count on that much for certain.
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