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Expelled-- No Science Contained (Vanity)
Soliiton via cited sources | 4/20/2008 | Soliton

Posted on 04/20/2008 8:49:48 AM PDT by Soliton

“Intelligent Design” is of no scientific value in determining the origins of life in the universe. A designer would have to be supernatural (i.e. not subject to the laws of physics) or natural and subject to those laws. If the designer is natural in origin, then it would have to have been designed by another designer –again supernatural or natural. Ultimately come to an original designer that either evolved from a lower state of matter, or was created by a supernatural being. You will note that this is back to where we started. Science does not deal with supernatural phenomena by definition. Scientifically, the only answer is evolution. ID, however, is really about the cosmology of the Book of Genesis anyway, but if that is admitted, it can’t be taught in school. And there’s the rub.

The term “Intelligent Design” was adopted by the Discovery Institute, the originator of the ID movement, and a non-profit company that was incorporated specifically to get the story of Genesis taught in public schools (as specifically stated in the incorporation documents). To that end a Creationist textbook was published called Of Pandas and People.

In 1987, The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that teaching creationism in public schools violated the separation of church and state in Edwards vs. Aquilard.

In a similar later case, Kitzmiller vs. The Dover Area School District involving the school’s acquisition of Of Pandas and People, it was proven in court that the publishers and the people who financed the purchase lied in depositions when they stated that Intelligent Design wasn’t just another term for Creationism. They did this by showing that dozens of passages in the pre-1987 Edwards vs. Aquilard copies of the book used “Creation”, while later versions substituted “Intelligent Design” in its place.

The entire Intelligent Design movement is a dishonest, legalistic Trojan horse specifically intended to teach creationism in public school even though it is against the law.

Complete transcripts of Kitzmiller vs. Dover can be found here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover.html


TOPICS: Religion; Science; Society; UFO's
KEYWORDS: evolutio; expelled; id; intelligentdesign; stein
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1 posted on 04/20/2008 8:49:48 AM PDT by Soliton
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To: Soliton
Why should it be forbidden to discuss any theory on any subject in educational institutions?
2 posted on 04/20/2008 8:55:26 AM PDT by JennysCool (They all say they want change, but they’re really after folding money.)
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To: JennysCool

ID isn’t a theory. It is religion. I cited the SCOTUS case. It shouldn’rt taught in school only because it is illegal to do so.

IDers should promote the IDA (Intelligent Design Amendment. Conservatives and Christians normally obey the law.


3 posted on 04/20/2008 8:59:07 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: Soliton

And you believe evolution ISN’T a religion?


4 posted on 04/20/2008 9:04:07 AM PDT by srweaver (Never Forget the Judicial Homicide of Terri Schiavo)
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To: Soliton

So don’t go see it. That’s your choice


5 posted on 04/20/2008 9:04:34 AM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Soliton

It isn’t just happening in science, it’s happening in language and history as well. “Liberal” education czars are more and more ensuring that only one interpretation of events may be discussed — no more of that pesky questioning and debate stuff. It’s all part of ensuring that we all think “correctly.”

And another big reason why America just keeps getting dumber and dumber.


6 posted on 04/20/2008 9:05:34 AM PDT by JennysCool (They all say they want change, but they’re really after folding money.)
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To: Soliton

The real question is, why dose ID scare you terribly?


7 posted on 04/20/2008 9:08:49 AM PDT by svcw (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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To: Soliton

Christians are under no obligation to follow immoral or unethical law.

I find it ironic those who disagree with ID will cite law to boost their incorrect opinion wrt whether it can and should be taught in schools, then turn around and tell Christians they should follow whatever is unethical.

Since you ignored the previous post, evolution is a form of religion. It’s just that people are not allowed to disagree with it, because of its human origin.

People are waking up to this reality, which has the other side shaking in their boots. But you already know this.


8 posted on 04/20/2008 9:09:58 AM PDT by dbreidenbach
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To: JennysCool

I agree with your entire post. And here’s a bump to it!


9 posted on 04/20/2008 9:10:19 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: Soliton
“Intelligent Design” is of no scientific value in determining the origins of life in the universe. A designer would have to be supernatural (i.e. not subject to the laws of physics) or natural and subject to those laws."

Then the Big Bang theory has no scientific value either because once you follow it back to the singularity all known laws of physics fall apart and we are dealing with the supernatural. Should we quit teaching that also?

10 posted on 04/20/2008 9:11:01 AM PDT by joebuck (Finitum non capax infinitum!)
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To: Soliton

‘morning, Soliton. :)


11 posted on 04/20/2008 9:11:48 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: JennysCool
Why should it be forbidden to discuss any theory on any subject in educational institutions?

I'm sure you'd have a problem with a required course regarding why Christians have an inferior mindset and should be either enslaved or murdered.

At some point, you draw the line.

Perhaps you make it an elective course. Or perhaps you simply say, we're not going to teach something that is simply incorrect.

But you do have to draw that line somewhere.

12 posted on 04/20/2008 9:12:31 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Soliton

While I am not in the ID side of the argument I see things in physiology, microbiology and the absolute math that governs the universe that does make me question the supposed randomness that governs life.

BTW I would argue that intelligent design is a concept as old as natural history, dating back to Plato and Paley, the latter having coined the term design on numerous occasions.


13 posted on 04/20/2008 9:13:06 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: srweaver

No - evolution is science.


14 posted on 04/20/2008 9:15:33 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: dbreidenbach

In what way is evolution a religion?


15 posted on 04/20/2008 9:16:24 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: Soliton

May the Intelligent Designer pass You by in Eternity, at least no logic was wasted on your being.


16 posted on 04/20/2008 9:18:23 AM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: True Republican Patriot

And the ID side starts with the personal attacks.

The ID side can not do science nor can they do debate. Can they do anything other than produce movies and books for profit?


17 posted on 04/20/2008 9:19:44 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: Soliton

I would like my children to be exposed to the underlying tenets of Christianity in school. I would like them to be taught the moral lessons that are readily available in The Holy Bible in school. The government penalizes me for this by forcing me to pay for other people’s children to go to government school while paying a second time for my own children to go to school.

This is the issue that it all boils down to. I’m forced at gunpoint to pay for things that are, to me, obviously wrong.


18 posted on 04/20/2008 9:22:54 AM PDT by MarineBrat (My wife and I took an AIDS vaccination that the Church offers.)
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To: True Republican Patriot

http://kids4truth.com/watchmaker

I like the theory at the above link!


19 posted on 04/20/2008 9:24:43 AM PDT by buck61
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To: aft_lizard

Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I have become somewhat of an expert on this subject in the last few days and it was a very painful process.

If you read my post and actually review the transcript of Kitzmiller, you will see the ID of the ancients as a very different critter than the current ID Movement. I have no problem with ancient cosmologies involving titans, gods, or great serpents creating the universe, or gos creating man. These are religious concepts however, not science. My problem is the dishonest attempt to disguise creationism as science by hiding behind ID and calling it science. At the same time, they take a heavilly supported and accepted theory like evolution and claim it as religion. I am defending scientific method, not just evolution. The barbarians are at the gates.


20 posted on 04/20/2008 9:24:55 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: srweaver
And you believe evolution ISN’T a religion?

Words have meaning, as El Rushbo often says, and yes I can prove that evolution is not a religion based on definitions.

21 posted on 04/20/2008 9:27:12 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: svcw
>>>>The real question is, why dose ID scare you terribly?

#1 My tax dollars are being used to push far right religious dogma down the throats of students, and even the so-called religious right knows it is nothing more than an attempt to wrap 5000 year old religious campfire stories into pseudoscience, so they try to hide Creationism under a new name “Intelligent Design.”

If you have to be dishonest about it from Day One, give it up.

#2. People who have trouble spelling four-letter words, (no, not the dirty ones) are its strongest supporters.

22 posted on 04/20/2008 9:27:19 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Leftists stop arguing when they see your patriotism, your logic, your CAR-15 and your block of C4.)
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To: JennysCool

You understand that this has gone all the way to the Supreme Court? Lawyers, not scientists, are to blame. Trying to snaek creationism in the back door is dishonest. Change the law.


23 posted on 04/20/2008 9:29:21 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: svcw
The real question is, why dose ID scare you terribly?

Because of the damage it does to real science

24 posted on 04/20/2008 9:30:19 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: Soliton

bookmark bump


25 posted on 04/20/2008 9:31:17 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: dbreidenbach

Did you read my post at all? If you want to refute any part, please do. that would be scientific.


26 posted on 04/20/2008 9:32:22 AM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: svcw

It scares me because I rather like our science driven high tech economy that enables us to have the most powerful military in the history of the world.

Simply saying that %deity% did it as ID does puts that all in danger.


27 posted on 04/20/2008 9:33:56 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: Soliton
“Scientifically, the only answer is evolution. ID, however, is really about the cosmology of the Book of Genesis anyway, but if that is admitted, it can’t be taught in school. And there’s the rub.”

That is unsupported and only a claim by evos. What if a Hindu brought forward the idea of I.D.? Or an agnostic?
I thought we bumped heads last night on the Catholic position but was mistaken. Evolution is a mechanism and what is the attempt by evos is to extend that back to the origins of life.

Science isn't advanced enough to exclude I.D. It is advanced to examine the potential evidence of it. The point we diverged on was science is only as good as the person paying for it. Science isn't necessarily honest. See the whole global warming agenda (which you wouldn't comment on last night) where data is fudged in the name of an agenda.

What is seen is the personal destruction of those seeking to examine evidence of whether there is proof of I.D. To even suggest it the person is tagged as a fundamentalist and banned. Your post is a great example of the fascist mindset.

As for quoting a court case, are you serious? Then I guess you feel great about Kelo v. New London, or Lawrence v. Texas. Or how about Roe v Wade?

No, bring all the I.D. folks in from all walks of life. Fund them. Let them do the research. Then review it honestly on its merits. Until the witch hunt ends no one should trust the high priests of academia. For they are not honorable.

28 posted on 04/20/2008 9:37:39 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: MarineBrat
Personally, I don't think ID is science, but you're spot on about the public schools. There's no reason why we taxpayers should be forced to support these abysmal government schools. About the only thing they do successfully is indoctrinate students to a liberal world view and spend obscene amounts of money.

And the government schools are the root cause of this whole controversy. If we all sent our kids to private schools of our choice, some of us would send our kids to secular schools, some to Christian schools and some to madrassahs or other nut factories. In any event, if we had a problem with the schools curriculum we would be free to send our kids to another school with a different curriculum.

29 posted on 04/20/2008 9:38:00 AM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: MindBender26

If you ask me (I know you didn’t) it’s islam that’s being forced down the throats of students. God is being kicked into the void and mohammed is filling that void.


30 posted on 04/20/2008 9:38:10 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: Soliton

I agree that the scientific method needs to be upheld and that ID needs to be held to that standard. I think ID’s biggest problem is its inability to identify a creator or designer, probably ever. Another problem is that if they could some how qualify scientifically that design is a possibility without proof of a creator they would more than likely still have to deal with evolution.


31 posted on 04/20/2008 9:40:58 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: tokenatheist

“No - evolution is science”

Yesterday you stated that evoltion is a theory.

Now today it is science.

Both the Big Bang THEROY and The THEROY of Evoltion are just that .

THEROIES, nothing more. Just something to talk about.

BTW, name three things you believe in that are conseravtive values.


32 posted on 04/20/2008 9:43:31 AM PDT by stockpirate (Obama and Hillery will make me vote for McCain, now if we can just move him to the right.)
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To: tokenatheist

Now that is bunk. Our science went along just fine with-out evolution and with creation in the class room up until the 1930’s, which by that time we had become the most technologically advanced nation on earth.


33 posted on 04/20/2008 9:44:09 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: processing please hold

No SPECIFIC religion or dogma should be taught in school.

After a teacher’s announcement, “Y’all be good;” it all goes downhill from there.


34 posted on 04/20/2008 9:45:32 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Leftists stop arguing when they see your patriotism, your logic, your CAR-15 and your block of C4.)
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To: stockpirate

I don’t think you quite understand what scientific theory is. Scientific theory is everything, there is actually very little scientific fact out there.


35 posted on 04/20/2008 9:46:09 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: aft_lizard
Darrow, Bryan and the Scopes trial were in 1925, and the arguments went back far before that.
36 posted on 04/20/2008 9:47:28 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Leftists stop arguing when they see your patriotism, your logic, your CAR-15 and your block of C4.)
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To: MindBender26
No SPECIFIC religion or dogma should be taught in school.

But that's not how it's working out, is it? Just google islam in American schools some day when you have the time.

37 posted on 04/20/2008 9:50:52 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: MindBender26

True, but creation was more widely taught in schools, and was taught until the 1960’s and our technology never suffered. I am not arguing for ID or creationism, just that stupid point that we would fall into the dark ages of technology advancement if we somehow made a blurb or two about ID, which I am not in favor of, at least not in science class.


38 posted on 04/20/2008 9:51:20 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: stockpirate

What’s the “Theroy of Evoltion”? “THEROIES”? “Conseravtive”?


39 posted on 04/20/2008 9:52:40 AM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: stockpirate

Evolution is science. It is also a theory.

Suggest, I do, that you look up what the word theory means in a scientific context.


40 posted on 04/20/2008 9:53:57 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: aft_lizard

So are you happy with 1930’s era tech?


41 posted on 04/20/2008 9:56:15 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: aft_lizard
True, but creation was more widely taught in schools, and was taught until the 1960’s and our technology never suffered. I am not arguing for ID or creationism, just that stupid point that we would fall into the dark ages of technology advancement if we somehow made a blurb or two about ID, which I am not in favor of, at least not in science class.

You're right. Except for a few fields, it doesn't really matter much what you believe about evolution or creation. A creationist could design an airplane, write a computer program or study the atmosphere just as well as an evolutionist. The academic success of Christian schools provides ample proof of that.

42 posted on 04/20/2008 9:59:18 AM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: tokenatheist

If I was in the 1930’s, yeah I would be. But your new argument is running off the assumption that technology would have stalled after 1930 if creationism stayed and that prior to 1930 there was no advancement, both laughable assertions.


43 posted on 04/20/2008 10:01:25 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: MindBender26

Wow. I misspeled a word so that invaldts my hole postg.
Looks lik evoltin didnt help you one bite.


44 posted on 04/20/2008 10:02:48 AM PDT by svcw (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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To: aft_lizard

creationism wasn’t used as a method to gut science. ID on the other hand does gut science.

One can not explore / question the universe when the answer to every question is ‘%deity% did it so don’t question it’.

It doesn’t help that the set of people who support ID overlaps quite a bit with the set of people who think vaccines are evil and the set of people who think the world is 6,000 years old.


45 posted on 04/20/2008 10:03:59 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: Soliton
I'm not the really religious type but I do find it odd that a country that bills itself as the greatest country in the world would create a "law" that made it illegal to teach about God in it's schools. EVERYTHING ELSE is okay. I wonder what people are afraid of. "Global warming" is the biggest religious scam to ever come down the pike but that's all schools are teaching these days when their not busy performing "sex ed" on the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

46 posted on 04/20/2008 10:04:15 AM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Help make the world "a better place!" De-Globalize yourself.)
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To: tokenatheist
Ok, you got me. I do not see the connection between a strong military and ID.
47 posted on 04/20/2008 10:04:54 AM PDT by svcw (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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To: IrishCatholic
Science isn't advanced enough to exclude I.D. It is advanced to examine the potential evidence of it.

"Potential" is correct, since there isn't any actual evidence, nor has any "potential" evidence been offered by the ID promoters.

ID is an idea. A philosophy. An alternative without any evidence for science to examine.

In the event ID promoters offer something other than the promise of "potential" evidence, I'm sure science will thoroughly examine it.

48 posted on 04/20/2008 10:06:34 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: tokenatheist

I don’t mind them teaching ID nonsense in public schools. Most students are going to come out dumb-as-a-stump, heads full of mush, and uneducated anyway. The few students interested in science will be informed or inform themselves regardless.


49 posted on 04/20/2008 10:06:37 AM PDT by Hiddigeigei (Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder. [Arnold Toynbee])
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To: tokenatheist

NOT an attack, merely a statement of fact Tokenatheist.


50 posted on 04/20/2008 10:08:42 AM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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