Posted on 02/27/2011 12:52:38 PM PST by SeanG200
My son (a believer) and one of his childhood friends (an atheist and extreme liberal) are taking a philosophy 101 class at the local college here in town and they are debating the Euthyphro Dilemma. There are two audio files in this post that DESTROY the atheists argument in regards to this position, not to mention that this is in fact NOT a dilemma: [QUOTE] ...While Plato was dealing with polytheism and a form of monism, this argument as dealt with herein is response to the challenges presented to theism. However, his use of a third option is what we present here as well… making this dilemma mute. What was Plato’s solution?
“You split the horns of the dilemmas by formulating a third alternative, namely, God is the good. The good is the moral nature of God Himself. That is to say, God is necessarily holy, loving, kind, just, and so on. These attributes of God comprise the good. God’s moral character expresses itself toward us in the form of certain commandments, which became for us our moral duties.
Hence, God’s commandments are not arbitrary but necessarily flow from His own nature. They are necessary expression of the way God is.One of the most important notes to mention is that once there is a third alternative, there is no longer a dilemma. [/QUOTE]
That sounds pretty controlling to me, AG. It reminds me of the liberal stance of zero tolerance for intolerance...how similar polar opposites can be.
LOLOL!!! I do recall that one, dear Mind-numbed Robot!
IIRC, it goes something like this:
Never wrestle with a pig. If you do, you will get all sweaty, and dirty, and probably bloody to boot. But the pig will ENJOY IT....Thank you ever so much, dear brother in Christ, for your outstanding essay/post! (I so agree with you, on many crucial points.)
Good grief, dear kosta50, just because a particular something "sounds" like something else in your imagination does not make whatever your "something" happens to be, a law of nature. You do not explain your presuppositions; you rarely if ever advance evidence; what you do is: Issue ersatz-divine Fiats....
So you're back to your old tricks — the ones dear Alamo-Girl referenced earlier, and which you have turned into a "pot-calling-the-kettle-black" exercise.... As if there were no difference at all between your basic view of reality, and Alamo-Girl's (and my own).
I suppose in your mind, dear kosta, the two views are perfectly "equivalent" as to their value. Or non-value. It's all the same. For you maintain that there is no ultimate criterion according to which questions regarding moral value can be asked, tested, and answered — let alone questions of Truth, Beauty, Goodness, and Justice....
But that's the very point where we part company. Speaking for myself, I have no self-concept as an "atomistic ego." Such a position strikes me as perfectly senseless: It seemingly has no connections to anything outside of itself.
Omigod, but that must be a very lonely existence....
What gives with you, dude? You can't really be enjoying any of this....
So, if someone doesn't subscribe to some tales he or she is "lost" and in the ditch where he/she belongs? Wow. Talk about religious pride!
The constant repetition of the same old thing finally wore me down.
No one asked you.
I mistakenly thought that sooner or later being hit in the head with a 2X4 would have the desired effect.
Why don't you try minding your own business instead of trying to convert convert people to your imagination?
He is talking about Progressives, well more accurately he is talking about Useful Idiots, and the difficulty in reaching them with common sense.
That's the Christian way. Call those who don't buy into your story Useful Idiots. Charitable.
He posits that they feel they are on the side of idealism and that they stick doggedly to their world view regardless of any facts which show the error of their ways.
You mean like "miracles"?
He says they prefer the idealized view of the Progressives because it allows them to feel superior to the rest of us.
Watch out!If they don't buy into your religion they must be "Progressives".
They care more than we do, in their eyes, so they are superior by default and that is more important to them than any real world facts.
Sounds like amateur psychoanalysis to me (with a little mixture of paranoia).
I see this situation only slightly different in that kosta50 feels superior to us because of his devotion to "science and reality."
Not at all. Perhaps only intellectually a tad bit more honest, at least as far as my own doubts are concerned.
Nothing will shake that because it would require him to relinquish his position of superiority.
And what would it take for you?
No, kosta50, I can't prove that but like Rhett Butler, "Frankly, I don't give a damn!"
Then why do you write to me unless you just enjoy throwing barbs at someone simply because he doesn't share your convictions?
I see you don't like it when it's going your way. Nothing like the taste of one's own medicine. :)
What gives with you, dude? You can't really be enjoying any of this....
Oh, yeah, keep telling yourself that. How can there be happiness outside of your world...it's unimaginable, right? LOL.
What do you mean by "outside" of "my" world? And why do you harp on "happiness?"
The one you live in in your mind, and write about.
And why do you harp on "happiness?"
Why do you harp about "loneliness" and "not being able to enjoy this?" Or are you really that incapable of connecting the dots?
Do me a favor bb, and robot: don't ping me with idiotic topics. Much obligaed.
The point here is that Newtonian physics "break down" in the macroworld. The very laws of causality break down in the quantum microworld. To say that the full truth of reality is or can be conveyed by Newtonian physics/mechanics is simply nonsense to me, on the foregoing grounds.
And thank you for those illuminating excerpts!
Who's the "real" robot here, kosta50?
When have I ever harped about "loneliness" and "not being able to enjoy this?" (Whatever "this" is?)
Since you never answer my direct questions anyway, I'll "oblige" you by not pinging you to "idiotic topics" in future.
Peace be with you!
I thought it was a very useful way to look at the scientific "big picture"....
Smith is Professor of Mathematics at Oregon State University. It seems so often it's the mathematicians who are the best critics of contemporary science. I certainly include Robert Rosen in that circle.
Thanks so much for your kind words of support, dearest sister in Christ!
You act like He’s making you make the choice you do.
A rational person will ask them to do this, before engaging them further.
Of course, this is a fine example of Socrates' genial irony.... He's poking fun at his friend Euthyphro....
Indeed, dearest sister in Christ!
And there is no equivalence between our Christian perception and that of the natural man.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Cor 2:6-16
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