No one has been able to produce a first hand source of BHO claiming he was born in Kenya.
34 posted on 07/26/2011 1:08:16 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
Don't you feel silly now?
Posted on 07/26/2011 8:03:13 AM PDT by charlene4
“The effects of rumors or errors can magnify over time. People may have seen the original article and mention it in conversation that “Barack” was born somewhere else. As time passes, people may often remember that tidbit even if it’s not true.”
Quite true. Now with that in mind:
“It just so happens that one of Obama’s relatives (Sekou Odinga)was a participant in that robbery,”
So is this thing about them being relatives based on something you read somewhere, or you misremembering something you were told, or a case of just making random stuff up? Because they’re not related whatsoever, so to assert that they ARE means either that you made it up or you heard it but didn’t bother to see if it was actually true before repeating it.
A Sworn affidavit stating that the document is a True and Correct copy of "THE" Original, and has not been modified or replaced by court order or other action of the state, that it represents an actual birth in Hawaii, and is not based on a variation of the "born at home" birth affidavit.
Did previous presidents present additional forms of verification?
It wasn't needed. They weren't challenged on it. (Except for Charles Evans Hughes, who lost the election anyway, so the point was moot.) Obama happens to be from a State that has rather frivolous laws about giving out birth certificates to people not actually born there. There is also evidence to indicate he was adopted, which calls into question whether we are seeing an original document, or a replacement document by court order. Apart from that, your Tu Quoque argument is a fallacy. Other people getting away with it does not justify another person in getting away with it.
Its probably a good idea to pursue the closed adoption theory. It would be a novel approach even though its OK for a President to have been adopted, if born in the US. Leslie Lynch King, Junior was adopted and so was William Blythe III.
I don't have a problem with the President being adopted. I only have a problem if that is true and people are hiding it from us. However, Adoption by Americans of a non "natural born citizen" does not transform someone into a "natural born citizen."
Barack Hussein Obama of Kenya, East Africa is listed as birth father and Stanley Ann Obama is listed as birth mother on the original birth certificate, also in the state Index data for all 1961 Hawaii births, addtionally on the Vital Statistics reports published in the Honolulu newspapers for August 13 and August 14, 1961 and in the 1964 Obama divorce decree: “One child has been born to said libellant and libellee as issue of said marrigage, to wit: Barack Hussein Obama, II, a son., born August 4, 1961.”
That a birth document was created in 1961 I have no doubt. Whether Barack Obama is actually the father, I have doubts, and whether Barry was actually born in Hawaii, I have doubts. Everything I have seen so far can also be explained by birth in Seattle or Canada with Grandmother Madelyn filing a "born at home" affidavit. (Though I am finding this scenario less and less likely.)
Those will be tough evidentiary hurdles to overcome but I’m not saying that it’s impossible, however the Constitution’s Full Faith and Credit clause is still in force.
That full faith and credit clause works both ways. Hawaii has an obligation to show good faith. Hawaii should inform all the other states if Obama was or was not adopted. They should also be forthcoming on whether or not his Birth papers are an ordinary and normal birth certificate filed by the Hospital of his birth, or whether they were initiated by a born at home affidavit.
Has any state, any court or any committee of Congress challenged Hawaii’s already issued verifications of those birth records?
They didn't even challenge him when he had presented nothing. They accepted the statement signed by Nazi Pelosi that he was eligible. No due diligence on the part of Nazi Pelosi or any state official was performed. We hope to change that this next time around.
OK, so you’re looking for additional wording on modifications/replacements added to the existing statements of Fukino and Fuddy and you would like a sworn statement.
Who might Obama have been adopted by?
The time frames don’t work for a home birth. The attending physician signed for an August 4th birth at Kapiolani Hospital and the state certified the birth on August 8th. Home births take weeks to verify. I cannot imagine how proof of a home birth could be verified 50 years later.
It does not bother me greatly if false information gets spread about Obama, but I myself have no intention of spreading it. Intentional lying is the tool of the enemy. I read an article regarding the relationship between Sekuo Odinga and the Odingas of Kenya. My recollection is that it was a website that I generally regarded as a good source, but I no longer recall which one or what article. A quick search for Sekuo Odinga doesn't indicate if that was his birth name or if he was originally born "Nathanial Burns" and Africanized himself Ala Malcom X.
Subsequent checking indicates that Nathaniel Burns did change his name to Sekuo Odinga, and is therefore only a philosophical cousin of Obama. You are right. I am Wrong. I apologize to all concerned for my little role in spreading an unchecked rumor.
However, they both apparently ran in the same circles, and I should not find it difficult to believe that Obama would have had contact with someone who's name he would have recognized as that of his family in Kenya. You should read this article and the subsequent links. That Obama could have so many connections with these people yet not have met them is hard to believe.
http://zombietime.com/obama_and_the_weather_underground/
Using the old stamp would be fine. :)
Who might Obama have been adopted by?
In order of timeline, Barack Obama Sr., Lolo Soetoro, Stanley Armour and Madelyn Dunham, and possibly a subsequent name change.
The time frames don’t work for a home birth. The attending physician signed for an August 4th birth at Kapiolani Hospital and the state certified the birth on August 8th. Home births take weeks to verify. I cannot imagine how proof of a home birth could be verified 50 years later.
Did you happen to notice how Obama keeps forgetting his birthday? He did it just a week ago or so. Last year (or the previous, I forget which) his wife forgot it was his birthday because her and the kids took off for a trip somewhere on or before his birthday. You are arguing from the perspective that everything written on that document is absolutely true. I am arguing from the perspective that unless it is independently verified, it is potentially false.
I have the advantage of a better perspective on this because my "Official" birth certificate contains a signature from my birth doctor 5 years after the fact! Apparently they copied it off the original, or something. I operate on the assumption that if they can do that, they can pretty much manipulate the "official" document to say whatever they want it to say.
Anyway, Hawaii apparently gives you up to a year to verify a Home birth, and I have read that the Doctor who examines the child can be claimed as the "birth doctor." This may strike a lot of people as peculiar, but so are Hawaii's birth certificate laws. In Hawaii, all you have to be is born to a Hawaiian resident (and it doesn't matter where) and you can get a Hawaiian birth certificate. I've posted the links to that statute a dozen times already.
“I apologize to all concerned for my little role in spreading an unchecked rumor. “
S’okay. You conceded the mistake, and that’s cool.
“However, they both apparently ran in the same circles, and I should not find it difficult to believe that Obama would have had contact with someone who’s name he would have recognized as that of his family in Kenya.”
But Obama’s not related to Raila Odinga either.
Odinga once claimed he was Obama’s cousin when he was running for office in Kenya (specifically, he claimed Barack Sr. was his maternal uncle), but Odinga’s and Obama’s Kenyan family members aren’t exactly secret, and Odinga’s mother (Mary Juma Odinga) is not a sister to Barack Sr. Nor are there any other relatives in common.
Why, in 1981, should Obama be familiar with the name of someone who wouldn’t lie about being related to him until 26 years later?
That Obama is related to the Odinga family has been bandied about from many sources for the last two years. You are right again, I did not check this to find out if it were true because this claim is ubiquitous. Your point is taken. Obama likely would have given little or no import to the name "Odinga" in 1981, But he was politically and geographically located at ground zero for this exact group of misfits making up the remnants of the Weather Underground and the Black Liberation Army. The theory that he could have hardly failed to seek out the man with the same name as his supposed "relative" is now debunked on the basis of that name, but not on the basis of Obama's and the Group's shared politics. There is still the possibility that someone enthralled with their own "Kenyaness" might have recognized the name as a Kenyan name, but that is not a foregone conclusion.
In any case, thanks once again for setting me straight on a point of fact.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2006/09/obama_africa_lessons_look_ahea.html
The money quote is:
" Obama's next big international journey will be in 2007r--he's looking at China, India and Indonesia, ``where ironicall I actually have more of a childhood than I do in Kenya.'' "
Kinda blows another hole in your theory that the "Kenya" rumor was all made up by "birthers" just to discredit the guy who won. LUUUCCCYYY! You Got some 'splanin to do!
Benjamin Franklin: "It is a terrible thing to see a beautiful theory being beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts."
You’re funny.
Really? At this point I would have guessed you weren't laughing or smiling. :)
So in 2006, Obama said he did NOT have a childhood in Kenya, and you interpret that as an admission that he DID have a secret childhood in Kenya? And that doesn't seem like a stretch to you?
Kinda blows another hole in your theory that the "Kenya" rumor was all made up by "birthers" just to discredit the guy who won.
Didn't say it was made up by Birthers; I said it was spread by Birthers.
I'm betting you don't see anyone in 2006 spreading the rumor that this was any sort of Kenyan-birth admission by Obama. Or, for that matter, any general 2006-era rumor-mongering about Obama being born in Kenya. The rumor-spreading, I think you'll find, started in 2008.
Benjamin Franklin: "It is a terrible thing to see a beautiful theory being beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts."
Yeah...that's not a real Ben Franklin quote, you know. It doesn't quite sound like 18th century Franklin. According to the Yale Book of Quotations, this is a variation of a quote by Thomas Huxley: “The great tragedy of Science — the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.”
That's some nice irony in using a bad quotation in saying that others are wrong.
They're like flat earthers or moon landing deniers.
And those who appear to be new arrivals to the issue make for an interesting study in epistemology.
So in 2006, Obama said he did NOT have a childhood in Kenya, and you interpret that as an admission that he DID have a secret childhood in Kenya? And that doesn't seem like a stretch to you?
Is English like a second language for you? He is saying that relatively, more childhood time was spent in Indonesia than in Kenya. The implied meaning is that some amount of childhood time was spent in Kenya. One does not normally mention in context spending childhood time where one has never lived as a child. If one has spent ZERO childhood time in Kenya, one does not mention Kenya at all.
Didn't say it was made up by Birthers; I said it was spread by Birthers.
A distinction without a difference. Fire only spreads after the match is lit. Obama was the one who lit the match.
I'm betting you don't see anyone in 2006 spreading the rumor that this was any sort of Kenyan-birth admission by Obama. Or, for that matter, any general 2006-era rumor-mongering about Obama being born in Kenya. The rumor-spreading, I think you'll find, started in 2008.
Well, we've found three prior to 2008, and that rumor that he's from somewhere else keeps getting spread. I recall him being referred to as "Kenyen" from the very first time I'd heard of him.
Yeah...that's not a real Ben Franklin quote, you know. It doesn't quite sound like 18th century Franklin. According to the Yale Book of Quotations, this is a variation of a quote by Thomas Huxley: “The great tragedy of Science — the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.”
That's some nice irony in using a bad quotation in saying that others are wrong.
I was wondering if you were going to quibble about the quote. I paraphrased it from what I could remember, but whether it comes from Franklin or Jesus, it's still a funny quote that describes the current situation of your argument. Of course I understand why you felt the need to nitpick about that. You aren't having much luck defending your position regarding the issue in dispute.
Yes, I can see how little concern you have for their opinions. You are only on every "birther" thread arguing against them, so naturally we must conclude you have no interest in the subject. Did I say that right? My "Newspeak" is a little rusty.
They're like flat earthers or moon landing deniers.
More like Galileo against the church, with you guys playing the part of the dogmatic Geo-Centrics.
And those who appear to be new arrivals to the issue make for an interesting study in epistemology.
I wouldn't worry about it, studying hasn't seemed to have benefited you much. I suggest they have more evidence for their beliefs than you have for yours.
You might want to actually learn about the interaction, alternately supportive and antagonistic, between Galileo and the Catholic Church before you use that analogy again.
But that seems to be one of your problems. You appear to take superficial understandings of things and run with them wherever they take you.
You might want to actually learn about the interaction, alternately supportive and antagonistic, between Galileo and the Catholic Church before you use that analogy again.
The Analogy is a perfect fit. Galileo did the research, discovered the truth and declared it. The Church, Dogmatic and unwavering in doctrine, denounced his claims, and possibly threatened him with death. They had not so long ago burned Giordano Bruno to death, so the threat was real. Galileo recanted under duress, but it was he who was correct, not the great and lofty Church. They were wrong. This issue of eligibility is exactly like that. Those who haven't researched it are IGNORANT, but also insistent upon following a faulty doctrine.
But that seems to be one of your problems. You appear to take superficial understandings of things and run with them wherever they take you.
And you seem to take off on a tangent when your central point doesn't seem to be going so well. Were I arguing from your position of weakness, I would want to change the subject too.
Galileo spent his last years in a sort of "House Arrest" decreed by the church, so as to prevent him from spreading his heresy. (Which happened to be the truth.)
OMG! Chris Mathews is a Freakin Birther! He started this rumor back on December 18, 2007!
But didn‘t Hillary dump on Obama a few days ago for playing up his Indonesian roots? So, what is she up to here? Is she pushing how great he is for having been born in Indonesia, or what, or simply reminding everybody about his background, his Islamic background?
Link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22326842/#.TkXSQWG_jnU
You have to hit the "Show more text" button at the bottom of the initial load, then read down 3/4ths to the bottom.
Another piece of Media reporting that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. How do you suppose a luminary like CHRIS FREAKIN MATHEWS would have gotten the idea that Obama was born in Indonesia? More importantly, why would someone so familiar with the "born here" requirement be so perfectly okay with a (to his knowledge) foreign born President?
Tell me how MSNBC is a journalistic misfit, like the criticism you guys levied at the African journalists? (Actually I believe that Chris Mathews AND MSNBC are completely journalistic misfits, and I would grant the African reporters far more credibility for truth telling.
No need to reply. I can hear your teeth gritting from here. :)
Drip... Drip... Drip...
Well, good luck with that young fellow.
No one has been able to produce a first hand source of BHO claiming he was born in Kenya.
34 posted on 07/26/2011 1:08:16 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
Don't you feel silly now?
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