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Question on Trade Unions (Vanity)
11/29/12 | me

Posted on 11/29/2012 10:23:24 AM PST by nitzy

Me and a hunting buddy were discussing unions the other day and it raised some questions that I would like help with.

He is a member of a skilled trade union here in Ohio and said he voted for Obama because Romney was for "Right to Work" and he said that would hurt his paycheck. He said that he is against factory unions, and public sector unions but that skilled trade unions work differently and don't deprive anyone of their rights.

He basically describes a skilled trade union hall as an exclusive "club" that only accepts members that have certain training, qualifications and pay dues. When contractors need to hire skilled workers they have the choice of hiring non-union workers and keeping them on their books or they can choose to enter into a contract with the local union hall. He claims there is no arm twisting or coercion involved.

So my questions are...

1. Is his description accurate?

2. How would right to work play into this?

Of course, he could not explain how right to work legislation would hurt him. Only that he was told by his union hall that it would.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Politics
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 11/29/2012 10:23:28 AM PST by nitzy
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To: nitzy

Good questions


2 posted on 11/29/2012 10:30:05 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: nitzy
Michigan UAW Member Demands Right to Work Law

Forced solidarity is no solidarity at all. Even prisoners in a chain gang have “solidarity.” Only through complete voluntary unionism will there be real solidarity that fosters mature relationships to save and create jobs. To be pro-union worker means to be pro-right to work.
3 posted on 11/29/2012 10:30:52 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: nitzy

In some states it is illegal to do some jobs without belonging to a union I think. I don’t know about your state.

I’m glad I live in a right-to-work state but if I wanted to work at a Kroger’s or for the GM factory in Arlington, I will have to join a union or not be hired. Even here in Texas.

Sounds your friend is describing a trade association or something.

Which is stupid.


4 posted on 11/29/2012 10:31:03 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: nitzy
e basically describes a skilled trade union hall as an exclusive "club" that only accepts members that have certain training, qualifications and pay dues. When contractors need to hire skilled workers they have the choice of hiring non-union workers and keeping them on their books or they can choose to enter into a contract with the local union hall. He claims there is no arm twisting or coercion involved.

What he describes there is 'right to work'. In non right to work States, you must belong to the trade union to work in the specific field, you have no choice about it. A right to work state means you have a choice to join or not join a union. You are free to choose the path that is best for you. His description is not accurate for non-right to work states. In those states, licensing for a trade is dependent and through the union. You can't legally be an electrician, for example.

That is in essence, a corporate monopoly on employment- with the union playing the role of the evil 'corporation', pushing small, independent workers out of business.

Ask him what would happen if he was in a non-right to work state and the union took a turn he didn't like. He would have no choice to work independently outside of union membership.

Right to work means freedom for the employee. They can freely choose to join or not join a union.

If his paycheck is hindered by the freedom of others, that says a lot about the monopoly of the union. How different is that than Wal Mart pushing-out(sic) small, independent businesses?

5 posted on 11/29/2012 10:34:37 AM PST by mnehring
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To: nitzy

Freedom of association and right to assemble.


6 posted on 11/29/2012 10:37:03 AM PST by Lysander (vices are not crimes.)
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To: nitzy
As I understand your friend's "trade union description, he has joined a guild, an organization based upon certain levels of standards or achievements. As a professional organization, I don't see how a right-to-work law would impact them.

Trade unions or guilds advertise their professionalism to potential employers seeking a certain level of standard within a trade. As long as those trade unions don't seek political power--seeking legislation for example, that requires government contracts to employ only trade unions, I don't see anything wrong with that. I would say your friend made a bad choice, vote-wise.

7 posted on 11/29/2012 10:37:50 AM PST by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
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To: mnehring
Right to work means freedom for the employee. They can freely choose to join or not join a union.

I don't want to pay union taxes to what amounts to another layer of unresponsive government.
8 posted on 11/29/2012 10:39:45 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: mnehring
I don't think your description is accurate.

There were 2 of us in the discussion criticizing unions. I was taking the tact that they were immoral. The other guy was actually a non-union electrician who was saying that union workers don't do a good job.

They both work in Ohio which is not a right to work state.

9 posted on 11/29/2012 10:42:01 AM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: nitzy
Any union is going to support all other unions, even if it works against their own best interests.
Is your friend IBEW? It takes five years of training and apprenticeship to become an IBEW electrician. The National Electrical Contractor's Union is a “Co-union” of the IBEW. They share the same retirement and health trust fund coverage. That the worker and contractor belong to the same union keeps a lot of the friction out of the picture. It's more of a guild than a union, at least until they joined up with the afl-cio, which I think was a mistake.
10 posted on 11/29/2012 10:42:46 AM PST by Excellence (9/11 was an act of faith.)
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To: nitzy

Tell him to watch Top Gear on BBC and their episode on British Layland.
Unions crushed the British car industry and the only thing left is vacant lots. It was quite shocking to see.
Detroit is going the same way.


11 posted on 11/29/2012 10:44:20 AM PST by Zathras
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To: nitzy
He claims there is no arm twisting or coercion involved.

He should ask his union-buddies how they would react if he became non-union, and arrived to work at a jobsite that is held to be the "domain" of union labor. Such as a university, large hospital, airport, etc.

Sure, he would live . . . but his equipment?

12 posted on 11/29/2012 10:46:08 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: nitzy
Only that he was told by his union hall that it would.

Yep - he's has drunk the Kool-Aid...

The ONLY positive I have been able to gather from "Trade Unions" - aka general skilled labor unions in Union states, is that it has made it harder for illegal immigrants to steal jobs in the construction business from Americans.

But that being said - even worse is 4 more years of job-killing (skilled and unskilled) Obama.

Your friend is blinded by his union buddies. But you are not likely to change his mind.

13 posted on 11/29/2012 10:46:25 AM PST by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: nitzy
... he voted for Obama because Romney was for "Right to Work" ...

I'd be very interested in hearing your friend explain how the President, whoever he is, matters a dingo's kidney to state "Right to Work" laws. Maybe if Romney was running for Governor might it matter.

14 posted on 11/29/2012 10:49:22 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: Zathras

I love that show because they are so openly right biased in Great Britain.

Jeremy Clarkson will get a labor party politician sitting down and then explain why the lefty politician is a moron. LOL


15 posted on 11/29/2012 10:52:30 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: nitzy

The comment is true as far as it goes. It does not take into account other action the unions (thru politicians) have caused to be emplaced. In relation to government contracts for roadway, government facilities etc. the contracts include langue that requires wages that are based upon the union model. If a non union labor hall was to be set up it would have to meet these wages not based upon supply and demand but because it is required by government edict. This is the coercion and the unions try to get this to apply to other businesses also.


16 posted on 11/29/2012 10:52:32 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: Ratman83

Proposal 2 and 4 in Michigan which thank God were defeated are a perfect example of why American dislike of unions is growing.

Prop 2 was an attempt to create an unelected union superlegislature

Prop 4 would have enshrined a right to steal from medicaid recipients into the constitution


17 posted on 11/29/2012 10:57:19 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: nitzy

You can find out some info on your friends union here.

http://www.unionfacts.com/union/International_Brotherhood_of_Electrical_Workers

Unions = Extortion. They have no use anymore and are a detriment to our society.


18 posted on 11/29/2012 10:57:28 AM PST by fudimo
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To: nitzy

To put it very simply, and generally, trade unions have long since shed their ideal of “ensuring good work” to “protecting bad work”. The crazies who have emerged in the last few decades as “Union Leaders”, like Richard Trumka, Stern of the SEIU, Leo Gerard, etc. still operate as if it’s 1936, when workers still had to “fight for their rights”, and were arguably exploited by employers, At this point, Labor has become MANAGEMENT,(remember that dichotomy), while Management
has had its own rights subject to permanent review,challenged,
if not outright thrown out the window. And I say this as someone who has worked independently in the building trades for 35 years. We fortunately will always have customers who
are not crazy about having to pay the exorbitant rates dealing with Union this or that involve.
For all these newly emerged voices and faces who we’re by now overfamiliar with, THANKS TO OBAMA, America is still
stuck in 1936, when they could arguably make the case that they were being exploited. To put it simply, THEY are now the problem, and Obama is granting them their Last Hurrah as their memberships steadily and deservedly decrease year after year,


19 posted on 11/29/2012 11:01:59 AM PST by supremedoctrine
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To: Excellence

I am not sure which union he is in.


20 posted on 11/29/2012 11:02:01 AM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: 1rudeboy

I used to work for a non union printing company that printed union contracts. They chose us specifically because we weren’t union and could got the job done cheaply and would do it on an “on call” basis. If the union negotiations ended in the middle of the night, I would get a call and get up and go to work.

Good luck getting a union company to do that.


21 posted on 11/29/2012 11:03:13 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Ratman83

That is helpful. Thanks.


22 posted on 11/29/2012 11:04:40 AM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: cripplecreek

Yeah, when I heard about them I was scared for your state. I thought too many would not understand and sink you through ignorance.


23 posted on 11/29/2012 11:04:44 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: fudimo

Thanks for the link.


24 posted on 11/29/2012 11:05:08 AM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: Lou L

“As long as these trade unions don’t seek political power...”

Are you kidding? Have you been paying attention to the Obama
Administration for the past four years?


25 posted on 11/29/2012 11:06:11 AM PST by supremedoctrine
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To: nitzy

You are welcome, look up Davis Bacon Act for some more info.


26 posted on 11/29/2012 11:09:26 AM PST by Ratman83
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: cripplecreek

“A non-union printing company that printed union contracts.
they chose you specifically because you weren’t union and could get the job done cheaply and would do it on an “on call” basis.”
There is more irony there than even my hard-charging brain
can process. What you are suggesting and what it proves is that unions can’t even deal with themselves! BUT THEY’D LIKE ALL OF US TO DEAL WITH THEM.
There’s so much in your short response it should serve as a prime example of what’s wrong with Unions.


28 posted on 11/29/2012 11:11:48 AM PST by supremedoctrine
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To: nitzy
Your hunting buddy shouldn't be allowed to use firearms, too stupid.

You are not safe being in the woods with this guy.

29 posted on 11/29/2012 11:11:59 AM PST by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages, start today.)
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To: Ratman83
Forced Unionization Hurts Families

Video
30 posted on 11/29/2012 11:14:00 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: supremedoctrine

I’m not even necessarily anti union. I was in the AFL-CIO myself and hated it but think unions are a good thing in a limited number of high risk jobs like mining, oil rig workers etc.

At the end of the day, every (private sector) worker should have the choice to join or not join a union


31 posted on 11/29/2012 11:17:42 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: nitzy

“Dues” is the key word...the Linemen from other states, like Georgia and Alabama, have all of the training and certifications for their job, but were turned away by the northeastern unions because they weren’t “members”...and the only thing missing was the “dues”.

Meanwhile, people who suffered damage from “Sandy” are still in the dark.

Unions build mediocrity in workers; sure, pay is equalized, but it’s also restricted so that those who don’t want to wander with the herd cannot exceed at their jobs and be rewarded for it.

“Security” of the paycheck? Benjamin Franklin said it of the government, but it applies to unions as well; “He who gives up freedom, for security, has neither.” (paraphrasing).

The union employees at the Hostess plant had “security”, until their union massas got greedy and now they have NO paychecks...over 18-thousand of them.

The bottom line, unions are mob rackets and benefit no one but the union leaders.

Right to work states have all of the services that they have up north, and do them just as well, of not better...with NO unions.

Unionism is a farce...it’s a microcosm of socialism/communism and it’s all about the leadership...not the members.


32 posted on 11/29/2012 11:21:35 AM PST by FrankR (They will become our ultimate masters the day we surrender the 2nd Amendment.)
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To: supremedoctrine
Why I am strictly opposed to public sector unions.

Cop Union Boss Boasts of Beating Lawmakers With Flashlights: If Soldiers Don’t Have Unions, Why Do Police and Teachers?

"We intend to walk into Lansing after the summer break and ask the Republicans who have been so eagerly screwing us, 'who's next?' If we cannot earn their respect we will do what we have always done; hit it with a flashlight until we gain compliance."


33 posted on 11/29/2012 11:23:19 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: cripplecreek

I have to disagree about those high risk jobs needing to be union. That is why we have OSHA,MSHA,DOL and numerous other agencies to protect workers.


34 posted on 11/29/2012 11:28:13 AM PST by fudimo
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To: cripplecreek

Yeah how much did the unions steal till that law/ruling (I cannot remember which) was it was reversed?


35 posted on 11/29/2012 11:30:04 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: USS Alaska
Unfortunately, political insight and hunting ability are mutually exclusive.

He is a far better hunter than I could hope to be.

Maybe he can teach me to hunt and I can teach him to think. ;)

36 posted on 11/29/2012 11:33:26 AM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: Ratman83

They’re still getting the money as the process works its way out. In a way, letting it continue for a little while might be good because they’re going to be sued and have to pay back the current $33 million + whatever else is included.

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16302


37 posted on 11/29/2012 11:35:16 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: nitzy

I worked in the Electric Shop at the shipyard in Pascagoula MS for a while and had to join the electric union and I did it because I needed the job at the time. It was pretty ineffective and the union bosses were pretty much rubes who thought they were big shots. Never did anything beneficial and also caused some other issues - I spent 24 years in the military working on electronic/computerized communication systems and I was offered a job shaking down the ships comm gear. They offered it to me because unlike most of the riff-raff that used the union to get away with quitting and just walking out, then coming back for their jobs when it was convenient, I was a good worker and had turned in my 2-week notice. I asked what the pay differential would be for moving into the more technical area and was told there was no difference - it was all eclectic shop. I suppose there are more powerful trade unions, but I’m not a union person and would imagine that they don’t really serve a big purpose.


38 posted on 11/29/2012 11:44:11 AM PST by trebb (Allies no longer trust us. Enemies no longer fear us.)
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To: cripplecreek

33 mil, nice chunk of change.


39 posted on 11/29/2012 11:46:45 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: nitzy
Your buddy is a jag-off. Trade unions are nothing more than labor cartels.

There are a handful which were actually useful once upon a time in certifying people to a certain skill level before they worked in the trade.

But I cannot think of one where that holds true now. IOW, you will probably get a better carpentry job done by hiring an Amish businessman than by calling on a crew from the carpenter's union. The union guys do most of their work at inflated prices from government entities (or their contractors) which have no other choice than to deal with the cartel.

40 posted on 11/29/2012 1:16:23 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: USS Alaska
I was reading about the unions in Hollywood. I always thought that actors were being "pampered" as some golfcart takes them from the set to their car, the commissary, etc.

No. Even if a celebrity wants to walk 400 feet, union rules say they MUST have some (whatever union) guy drive them.

41 posted on 11/29/2012 1:25:34 PM PST by boop ("I need another Cutty Sark"-LBJ)
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To: nitzy
Ohio is a "Closed Shop", aka "Union Shop" State. Trade Unions have a heirarchy of advancement, based on Seniority AND Skill levels. While they DO have good skills training, they also FORCE Members to pay the Dues (money-laundering of tax dollars to the DNC), AND, they are KNOWN to send thugs to Non-Union jobsites to intimidate the workers AND the businesses that hire them. Their rates are "Union Scale", which is FAR higher than like-quality Non-Union workers, which is why they have to make sure no one is hiring outside the Union Membership, if at all possible.

It is ALSO why the Government jobs are ALWAYS Union-requirement bids, because "Prevailing Wage" means Union Wage, and they don't want independent trades bidding and messing up their gravy train.

Non-Union/Right to Work means hiring based on PERFORMANCE, QUALITY, and SKILLS. That's why Union Seniority has so many non-productive Members who sit on their asses, but paid with their "time", and now watch the YOUNGER workers do all the work, while they collect their "Journeyman" wages and Benefits.

Look at all the deadwood in the Public Sector, and you will also see the same in the Private Sector where Unionism is the Law.

42 posted on 11/29/2012 2:02:22 PM PST by traditional1 (Don't gotsta worry 'bout no mo'gage, don't gotsta worry 'bout no gas; Obama gonna take care o' me!)
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To: traditional1
So, if I understand correctly, the immoral part is that government jobs MUST be paid at the prevailing wage. Thus making the inefficient and corrupt unions competitive against the trim, efficient, market driven non-union shops.

Is this correct?

So now my next question is...

Does "right to work" encompass both the idea that one should not be forced to join a union as in the case of a manufacturing plant as well as the idea that government contracts are subject to free markets and not prevailing wage?

I was under the impression that it only dealt with the first subject.

43 posted on 11/29/2012 2:56:20 PM PST by nitzy (A just law will neither punish virtue nor reward vice.)
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To: nitzy
"Does "right to work" encompass both the idea that one should not be forced to join a union as in the case of a manufacturing plant as well as the idea that government contracts are subject to free markets and not prevailing wage?

I was under the impression that it only dealt with the first subject. "

It depends on the locale.

In major cities (the ones that are currently Democrat strongholds, that out-vote the number of Registered Voters via Fraud, in the Elections, such as in Cleveland), there are Union rules on Contracts, to assure Unions get all the taxpayer-funded work, at about 2x or 3x the cost of TRUE Competitive Bidding contracts that would allow non-Union Bids.

A Right-to-work State doesn't necessarily stop the cities from blocking non-Union workers from their Contracts, and because Union and Democrat means one and the same there, the Cities have ALL Unionized Public Employee Unions plus a Requirement that "Prevailing Wage" Language is in ALL their Contracts.

44 posted on 11/29/2012 3:23:56 PM PST by traditional1 (Don't gotsta worry 'bout no mo'gage, don't gotsta worry 'bout no gas; Obama gonna take care o' me!)
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To: nitzy
Maybe he can teach me to hunt and I can teach him to think.

He can teach you to hunt, but thinking requires an open mind.

My brother in law is an ex-sniper with 20-15 vision and is an excellent hunter.

When he started his spewing lib ideas, I stopped going into the woods with him.

BTW, we hunted together for 25 years, but now I wouldn't trust him, and in the woods, he is a way better hunter {and professional shooter} than I am.

45 posted on 11/30/2012 3:59:15 AM PST by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages, start today.)
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To: supremedoctrine
Are you kidding? Have you been paying attention to the Obama Administration for the past four years?

I don't disagree that labor unions have been corrupt in the political process. The way the author of this post originally described it however, I differentiated a "trade union" from a labor union, assuming the trade union was more about meritorious qualifications, as opposed to politically-connected ones. If that's not the case here, then I'd lump them all together.

46 posted on 11/30/2012 4:48:05 AM PST by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
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