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Can we really stop mass shootings?
Self ^ | 12/24/12 | umgud

Posted on 12/24/2012 5:45:24 PM PST by umgud

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report for 2011, there were 12.664 total homicides. 8,583 of those murders were committed with firearms, a number that has been trending down for years. In 2011 there were 3 mass shootings that produced 19 deaths and many more injured. The FBI defines mass murder as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders. We have had 61 mass murders in the last 30 years (since 1982). In 2012, we have had a banner year with 6 mass murder events totaling 63 deaths.

Our latest mass shooting at Sandy Hook has the nation calling for action to deal with mass murders in particular and gun crime in general. I’d like to use the above statistics to put our challenge in perspective as we wrestle with how to best deal with it.

First, I’d like to separate mass murderers from all other murderers. They specifically distinguish themselves by killing 4 or more people in a single event. In 2012, out of a population of some 313 million, 6 people chose to become mass murderers. Statistically, that is the proverbial spec on the end of the needle in a really huge hay stack.

I can’t conceive of a way to profile and predict who the next 6 shooters might be, but to this end, it gets harder. Many, if not most of these mass shooters, while both mentally defective and evil, have never been adjudicated mentally defective or have criminal histories that would prohibit them from owning firearms. This includes Adam Lanza (our latest shooter), James Holmes, the CO movie theater shooter, Nidal Malik Hasan (Ft Hood shooter), Jared Loughner (shot Gabby Giffords) and Seung-Hui Choi who killed 32 at Virginia Tech.

Regarding mass shooters, I am hard pressed to think of any meaningful or reasonable way to stop them or mitigate their actions. As horrific as their acts are, I’m not comfortable passing laws or applying actions against 313 million people in the false hope of affecting 6 madmen bent on mayhem. There are however, two constants associated with most or all these mass shootings; Gun-free zones and hi-cap magazines. Not all mass murders are at school, but these tug on our hearts the most. James Holmes chose a movie theater that banned guns too. Regarding schools, I believe that more people should have the ability to carry weapons. I won’t here, debate who that should be, but I will say a single security guard probably isn’t sufficient.

Hi-cap mags? It would make many people happy to see them banned, but reality says there are already millions in circulation and it would be decades, if ever that such a ban would have any effect. BTW, hi-cap mags can be made by almost any person with a little bit of metal working skills.

Now let’s move on to the other 8,500+ firearm homicides. I’ll be brief. We can easily drive this number down because it’s a criminal management problem and criminal management solutions are the remedy that will work here. BTW, let me say something here about hi-cap mags and so-called assault weapons. These 8,500 murders produced less than 4 deaths per shooting, probably most being one per shooting. I don’t know how many of these shooters used so-called assault weapons or hi-cap mags, but they offered no advantage here as only 3 or less people were killed per event, so a total ban on these wouldn’t change the 8,500 number one bit. We could go back to 6 shot revolvers and kill this many people. Yeah, I know some will say they are lousy shots and have to spray lots of ammo to kill just 3.

Let me sum up my positions here. BTW, my main goal isn’t to go over possible solutions. It is to put the big picture in perspective.

I hate to be a killjoy (I know, a poor choice of words), but I’m not sure we can put into place actions to stop mass murderers that will work.

As to garden variety gun crime, I’m of the opinion that most gun laws are directed at law abiding citizens as criminals don’t obey those laws anyway. Drive down any Martin Luther King Blvd and you can bet a large percentage of the people you see are carrying concealed weapons........ without permits. Gun control is kinda like trying to solve drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to own cars.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; massshootings; secondamendment

1 posted on 12/24/2012 5:45:31 PM PST by umgud
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To: umgud
Can we stop mass murders???....Sure....outlaw abortion!!

I get so angry that no one stops this. What's wrong with America.

Our moral fiber has been politicized away.

2 posted on 12/24/2012 5:49:15 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: umgud

“I hate to be a killjoy (I know, a poor choice of words), but I’m not sure we can put into place actions to stop mass murderers that will work.”

That is because there isn’t one. And turning our nation into a totalitarian state in an effort to create a perfectly safe society is only asking for even greater mass murders still.


3 posted on 12/24/2012 5:49:41 PM PST by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: GenXteacher
bttt

I don't think we can stop them. Tragedies; e.g., hurricanes, car accidents happen in life.

Maybe we can mitigate it some by allowing teachers to carry arms.

4 posted on 12/24/2012 5:54:49 PM PST by Stepan12
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To: umgud

No.

The fact is that mass shootings in schools are a tiny fraction of a percentage. Other shootings in schools is also a pretty low number and usually confined to inner city schools.

Some Detroit schools have armed security and metal detectors and they still have a few gang shootings per year. Rather than cut down on the shootings they’ve mostly just moved to places like bus stops.

The only effective deterrent is to remove the gun free zones altogether and leave the potential threats guessing. However, nuts will always be nuts and some will always get through.


5 posted on 12/24/2012 5:55:58 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: GenXteacher

“turning our nation into a totalitarian state in an effort to create a perfectly safe society is only asking for even greater mass murders still.”

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned, but certainly figures in to the 0 administration’s thinking on this, is how many folks will turn violent when the 2nd Amendment is violated as many are scheming...?

I believe it won’t be pretty...and it just may lead to Civil War II.


6 posted on 12/24/2012 5:56:12 PM PST by PreciousLiberty (Pray for America!!!)
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To: umgud

Yes we can, we just have to imprison everyone, a prison planet police state is a safe state.....


7 posted on 12/24/2012 5:56:25 PM PST by GraceG
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To: umgud

With a congress that refuses to enforce the laws we already have on the books and a all but open borders that invite smuggling...sure, you bet we can stop mass shootings. All we need is more laws.


8 posted on 12/24/2012 5:57:13 PM PST by Baynative
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To: Sacajaweau
Pass it along.

Photobucket

Forty million plus and still counting.

9 posted on 12/24/2012 6:13:41 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: umgud

Didn’t stop Jim Jones, Lizzie Borden or the deaths of 800,000 Rowandans by machette.

I could list more but why....


10 posted on 12/24/2012 6:14:17 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: umgud
I haven't researched any time frames, but it seems that there are more mass shootings when we have a Democrat President. Nearly all mass shootings occur in gun free zones.

If we would stop electing Democrat presidents, eliminate all gun free zones, and overturn all laws that restrict concealed carry, I suspect there would be far less attempted mass shootings.

11 posted on 12/24/2012 6:14:24 PM PST by c-b 1 (Reporting from behind enemy lines, in occupied AZTLAN.)
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To: umgud

No, but we can enact policies that will mitigate the damage.


12 posted on 12/24/2012 6:20:36 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: GraceG

And then pit those exploding necklaces on each prisoner and pair them with another prisoner.

If one tries to escape and moves to far from the other well, it’ll be a bloody mess.


13 posted on 12/24/2012 6:21:34 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Navy Patriot
No, but we can enact policies that will mitigate the damage.

I'd like to hear some of those. I have some ideas too.

14 posted on 12/24/2012 6:24:24 PM PST by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: umgud
Two things to consider...

From the same FBI stats: Approximately 6,000 of these murders were with pistols. No Assault Weapons (whatever that means) ban would impact this.

More importantly, Nidal Malik Hasan (Ft Hood shooter), should not be on this list. The Fort Hood shootings were an act of war, not a criminal act.

15 posted on 12/24/2012 6:30:03 PM PST by MS from the OC (Obama taking credit for killing OBL is like Nixon taking credit for landing on the moon, John Bolton)
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To: umgud
I'm 61 years old now and can remember leaving the doors unlocked and the keys in the car. We all had guns, well, at least most of us.

My dad was from the WWII era and taught me early gun safety. When he was growing up during the depression, he was the one bringing home the meat for the family when he was so small, he could barely hold his fathers Browning 12 ga shotgun up to his shoulder. He was only allowed 2 shells cause the cost too much. If he missed, his father chewed him out to be more careful. I heard the story many times of my uncle shooting ducks with a .22 because the shells were cheaper.

We prayed in school and read Bible verses even if you didn't believe. We convicted our criminals and even rape was a death sentence in Texas at the time. I never knew of or ever saw any pictures of anyone burning an American flag. I rode my bicycle down to the Sears store to buy my first rifle, a 7.62 Russian mouser. I was about 11 and rode my bike with the rifle slung over my shoulder down the main street of town and nobody thought anything about it. My father taught me to shoot safely with a .22, then a shotgun( the same one he used as a child and the same his father used). and then his 6.5mm Swedish Mouser. He took me hunting and showed me how to skin and butcher meat. We also fished and had a shrimp net and he taught me boating safety and how to work on engines. I rebuilt my first Briggs and Stratton at about age 9. My first car was a '57 nash with no battery and about 3 spare tires at .50 cents each. The battery was so dead, I had to park on a incline to start it later. I was 16. Before that I had a Chushman scooter to deliver my papers and ride to school. I drove at 14.

The point is,......we have changed, and changed for the worse. Kids today are scary. They don't think like I did or any other American children did back then. When I have shown my weapons to my nephews, The first thing they do is point the weapons somewhere and pull the trigger. We end up in a fight and they don't like uncle chuckles anymore. No one has taught them ANYTHING. They are worse than idiots, it is borderline mental illness, if you ask me. They have no grasp of anything important. It's like they are 4 years old in a 15 year old body. They make fun of any car that is over 5 years old. They destroy perfectly usable items for the "fun" of it. I would have been beaten by my father if I acted as they do. The guns were over the TV and in plain sight, but I dare not even touch one without my father's say so until I was 13 or so. Today, They snoop till they find something, then act like 2 year old's till someone gets hurt.

America has lost something very dear, but it's difficult to put you finger right on it. It's the whole culture. I'm sure you can't pass one law that will fix any of it. Decades of abortion, homosexuality, and teaching that God is a myth, can't be turned around in a year.

16 posted on 12/24/2012 6:39:32 PM PST by chuckles
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To: SkyDancer

>> Forty million plus and still counting.

50+


17 posted on 12/24/2012 6:44:13 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: chuckles

>> America has lost something very dear,

The Left is choking the Country. Not sure we lost it.


18 posted on 12/24/2012 6:45:36 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: umgud
Policy #1, mandatory firearms safety and history orientation taught to every American school student yearly at grade level until completion of a university doctorate degree, by NRA trained and approved instructors.

No exceptions for any reason.

19 posted on 12/24/2012 6:49:23 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: umgud

There was a fellow interviewed on the radio soon after the shooting.

He was a guy who had basically studied these incidents for years. AFAIK, he was NOT a classical “psychologist”, just a writer/investigator.

He said that ALMOST TO A MAN, he had seen evidence (either writings the perp had done, or conversations the perp had had with others) that one of the main factors in the act was that the media would eat it up and report it night and day, endlessly.

So it was a way for these people to get their fifteen minutes of fame. An “in yur face” kind of act towards society, and they utilized the media to get their point across.

It wasn’t about killing lots of people, it was a way to get famous.


20 posted on 12/24/2012 6:53:55 PM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: chuckles

Uh...... that was profound. Thanks.


21 posted on 12/24/2012 6:57:47 PM PST by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: djf

I was happy to see our local school remain in session Friday in the face of a flood of threats around the state. They said they didn’t believe the threats were credible and wouldn’t reward bad behavior.


22 posted on 12/24/2012 7:02:45 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: PreciousLiberty
People don't start civil wars, States do.

I hear nothing from any of the Governors of the States to suggest they intend to do anything to solve the Washingtonian problem.

The apparatchiks in DC intend to steal every last dime from those outside the Beltway, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it until the non communist American States form coalitions and rebel.

23 posted on 12/24/2012 7:12:06 PM PST by Rome2000 (THE WASHINGTONIANS AND UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE ARE THE ENEMY -ROTATE THE CAPITAL AMONGST THE STATES)
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To: umgud

We should start a War on Mass Shootings and form the Mass Shooting Enforcement Administration and name a czar of Mass Shootings and blah blah blah.


24 posted on 12/24/2012 7:29:07 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: Gene Eric

Something like 1.1 million abortions in the US a year?


25 posted on 12/24/2012 7:33:48 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: umgud
Your analysis misses the situations which would have been a mass murder except that an armed citizen was present who confronted the shooter and ended the event. The best solution to stopping mass murders is increasing the number of people carrying a firearm with them in their daily activities.

For example, shortly after the attack in Connecticut an off duty police officer at a theater in Texas prevented another mass shooting by using his firearm.

The difference between a murder, and mass murder in almost every case is the presence of armed people that the shooter did not expect to be there - namely citizens with concealed carry weapons.

26 posted on 12/24/2012 8:10:44 PM PST by freeandfreezing
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To: Stepan12

How many car accident deaths every year?


27 posted on 12/24/2012 8:11:26 PM PST by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: umgud
Photobucket
28 posted on 12/24/2012 8:11:54 PM PST by baddog 219
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To: umgud

If you stopped all Mass Shootings, there would be more Mass Bombings.

If you stopped all Mass Bombings, there would be more Mass Arson.

If you stopped all Mass Arson, there would be more Mass Vehicular Homicide.

If you stopped all Vehicular Homicide, there would be more Mass Poisonings.

If you stopped all Mass Poisonings, there would be more....


29 posted on 12/24/2012 8:51:31 PM PST by Kickass Conservative (I don't Trust a Government that doesn't Trust me. How about you Comrade?)
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To: umgud; All
Make it illegal for politicians to have stock in the lucrative Zombie drugs - and bringing up the stark and undeniable connection between these phycotropic billions-a-years drugs will not be buried.

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/fox-news-school-shootings-caused-by-teens-on-anti-depressants/

30 posted on 12/24/2012 8:58:15 PM PST by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
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To: Stepan12; All
you say: “Maybe we can mitigate it some by allowing teachers to carry arms. “

We CAN mitigate it by NOT allowing these ZOMBIE drugs to be handed out like gumdrops -

These drugs are off the table for discussing because too m any pols have lucrative stocks in these billion of dollars a year mind-destroying drugs. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/fox-news-school-shootings-caused-by-teens-on-anti-depressants/

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

go to youTube and search the subject. Seeple. Turn off “Idol” and “Dancing with the Stars” for one night and educate yourselves. How many years has this information been available! But we let them get away with ignoring it and with continued destruction of peoples lives - both the perpetrators, their families and the victims.

A sleeping public bears guilt too.

31 posted on 12/24/2012 9:07:06 PM PST by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
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To: chuckles

This is it, Chuckles — you have hit the nail on the head.

Dads, if they’re even THERE, aren’t really all there anymore. They’re at: sporting games, or watching them on TV, on the golf course, at work ... — or they’re with their new girlfriend ...mostly at work for 12 hrs straight (my own husband included)

Don’t even get started on the moms. Most have to work now —and kids are shuffled to daycare from 6 weeks of age and up, then after school care programs, then home alone once when reach a certain age, with video games and other rot to fill their time.

When I tell most women I stayed home with my kids for 15 years, I get the rolley eyes and the old “I could never do that ...I’d be bored out of my mind,” thing.

Screens are raising the kids ... and now I-phones. Their minds are warped. And you’re right ...they don’t know how to do a damn thing. It’s cultural all right — it’s just plain horribly bad parenting endemic in our society.


32 posted on 12/24/2012 10:18:05 PM PST by LibsRJerks
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To: umgud
Apparently a big surprise for a lot of people:

Defense preparedness, is a major part of every individual's every day life on earth.

It always has been. It always will be.

Leftist, liberal, progressive, nationalizing socialist wishful, magical thinking, will not change that.

Rather, leftist, liberal, progressive, nationalizing socialist wishful, magical thinking, will produce what it has always produced:

a police state that puts people in cages, whether the cage is barbed wire or the cage is barbed political accusations spewing from the pulpits of Marx, Lenin, Gramsci, Alinsky, Obama and Holder et al, and the leftist/liberal "media" propaganda organs

... collectively known in the pained memories of the victims of socialism, as "The Ministry of Truth."

In which mystical contrivance by the present-day intellectuals not yet arrested by that police state - TO THEIR SURPRISE - we are told, on up until we meet such dogmaticians in the concentration camps or enroute to some ditch, that *their* definition of "work" makes you free.

Within the confines of the nationalizing socialist nutshell, aka your cage.

The Poles of communist post WW-II Poland will tell you exactly that, how you would be told what to think, what to eat, what to say, what you could express, and more, and you *did* as you were told, or the police state came to collect you for a time set by the state, regardless of any "law."

The entire 20th century proved that nationlizing socialism is the path to police state control over life and liberty, during which long passage, tens of millions of people --- including millions of children.

Millions of children disposed of by "social cleansing" that the eggheads of "modernity's" socialism, now lust to impose upon millions of Americans who have committed no crimes.

If you think that "cleansing" is restricted to your race or your religion, you are mistaken.

The nationalizing socialists want to strip away your ability to build a foundation of individual freedom; they want to scrub away your courage; they want to erase your will to resist.

They want to cleanse any instinct of yours to be free, and especially any notion you may have that some power greater than the state, will support you in your efforts.

Every person who ever for even a brief moment dreamed of being free from the tyranny of nationalizing socialism, knows this to be true.

The left, the liberal media, Nina Totenberg and Chris Matthews and Piers Morgan ... all want you to forget it.

You may be scared right now, but after the initial shock has worn off, you will find the courage to resist the nationalizing socialist police state.

33 posted on 12/24/2012 10:52:11 PM PST by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: umgud

Now let’s move on to the other 8,500+ firearm homicides.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Of those deaths what were the percentages ( victim and assailant) in terms of race: White, Asian, Black, American Indian?

I bet, I bet, I bet, that one particular demographic is responsible for most of the mayhem.


34 posted on 12/25/2012 7:06:40 AM PST by wintertime
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