Posted on 02/16/2015 1:02:53 PM PST by CaptainPhilFan
This question has been bubbling and I don't know enough to resolve it myself.
Asking you Smart People to help me flesh this out- or decide if it's a worthless navel gazing exercise.
Realizing I'm setting myself for ridicule... here goes....
Re: The quran calling Christians and Jews "People of The Book":
The quran was put together before 700 BC. The first Bible was printed in 1450, the Torah 1482. Before that there were papyrus, scrolls, writings - but no "Book".
Is the quran actually referring to the "book of life" from both the old and new testament? ..... is there a difference? Does it make a difference?
Thinking about this because the usual understanding (at least in my circle) is that when muzzies say "People of the Book" they are refering to the Bible, NOT God's "Book of Life", or the "Book of Remembrance" mentioned in the Old Testament.
Is this even worth thinking about? It comes down to the same people, but could it clarify that the muzzies DO consider God an enemy and expose their allah as NOT being Jehovah?
Just send Viking Kitties if I'm being as ass. I won't mind. Thanks in advance for any insight, though.
Book of Life references in the Old and New Testaments http://www.discoverrevelation.com/11.html
People of the Book - muzzies addressing "People of the Book" http://www.aimer-jesus.com/e/Oh_people_of_the_book.php
There were handwritten versions of Hebrew Scipture long before Christ’s birth as well as gospels and epistles written by the apostles after His death. This is likely what the Koran is referring to.
The first bible printed on a movable type press was in 1450. Books (originally called a codex) were around from the beginning of Christianity. The bible in book form existed before Mohammed. It is questionable if Mohammed ever saw such a book, so that’s just one of those things that Satan told him about as he dictated the anti-bible to Mohammed.
Thank you. Because there were no “books” but mohamed would have known of the ‘Book of Life” I wonder which indeed was he referring to, and if it makes any difference.
Still pondering it.
Try 700AD.
>>Still pondering it.
Mohammed’s anti-bible (i.e. koran) was given to him by the Father of Lies. He would not have referenced the “Book of Life”. He was referring to just the book itself, as means of taking away the power of the Word and bringing it down to the level of the koran, in which the book itself declares itself holy.
The koran declares the bible to be just a book, Jesus to be just a man, and Christians to be blasphemers. But, it declares that we can be saved through a simple little prayer and lifetime of submission to a being that called itself allah in a 7th century cave.
I think Koran or Quran was around mid-600’s AD. It was definitely AD though not BC.
Hebrew Bible (all books except Esther) we now have copies from 200 BC/BCE...to about 100 CE .....
Greek Bible we have most of the text from at least 300 CE.
Mohammed didn’t live until 400 years after that.
In Hebrew, Greek, and in Arabic, I think, there are different words for “book” and “scroll”. I presume that “book” here refers to something more general than leaves of paper bound together on one edge.
Don’t worry about it, they’re going to try to
kill you in any event.
Very true. They want us all dead.
I’ve heard some say that Islam calls Christians and Jews “People of the Book” due to having respect for The Bible and respect for these faith traditions.
And I’ve heard some say that within the Islamic hierarchy, that they consider Jesus to be a major prophet.
My guess is that those descriptions are coming from liberal apologists for Islam. They certainly are not showing any respect for other faith traditions.
Putting aside issues of terrorism, consider what happens in Islamic countries. Bibles are banned in Saudi Arabia. If you try to bring a Bible in, you are committing a criminal offense there. Churches are banned in Saudi Arabia. Conducting Christian religious services in a private home or other private place is also banned in Saudi Arabia.
You are a bit confused. The Quran was not written down until the late seventh century AD. Muslims date their calendar from 622 AD, the year Muhammad escaped Mecca (the locals were about to kill him .. now there’s an unfortunate missed opportunity) and was able to regroup in Medina and form his followers into a military force the retook Mecca and then much of the Arabian Peninsula. The suras (chapters) in the Quran which refer to Jews and Christians as “Peoples of the Book”, in contrast to most Arabs of that time who were pagans, were probably from his early ravings when he thought there was a chance he’d be accepted by either or both as a legitimate prophet. Neither was fooled and the tone changed. Cherry picking suras to portray the religion as peaceful is quite the hobby among today’s politically correct.
from wiki it sounds like the reference includes muslims who don’t live or practice their religion.
There are many statements in the Qur’an telling that People of The Book are people who have the book of Allah but do not practice. Some examples are below:
If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.[12]
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.[13]
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.[14]
Yes - my mistake - I know it’s 700 AD but typed BC.
(frankly I was focused on not posting a hot link and missed that date error)
Thanks all for your thoughtful replies. Good opportunity to learn several things from this thread.
Glad to be in the company of scholars.
No pretense of being a scholar, but will offer the following in addition to the good remarks made here. The Hebrew Scriptures, which include the Pentateuch, the Writings, & the Prophets (sometimes called by Jews, the Torah, w’Nebiim, w’Kethubim) were penned by Moses (Torah), many other writers (The writings) and the Prophets themselves (the Prophets by name). We call these the “Old Testament”.
In the early books (Torah), Moses makes it clear that a family was selected by God to be “on stage” for the world. Abraham (grandfather), Isaac (father), Jacob (son) comprise the lineage of the “chosen nation” of Jews. Every Jew is from this descendancy. They were given the Law (Exodus, Leviticus) and given a history (all the other books).
Tragically (or perhaps fortunately), irrespective of how much they were favored, they failed to be holy. The Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, et al) tried over and over to “call” them back to God...to no avail. All the commitments, the promises, the cajoling could not work. What will save them? Oh, yes, there is a Rescuer coming!
As I mentioned, the books which tell this portion of the “story” comprise the 39 books we call the Old Testament. It was a well-established compendium by the time Jesus was on the scene (0 - 33AD). He refers to many of the Scriptures as evidence that He was the Rescuer. Sort of a proof-text backing up His authority and demonstrating that He was in fact God on earth.
Upon His departure, men started penning the historical events surrounding Jesus and His teaching. One thing often misunderstood is that folks believe Jesus was teaching us “How to be a Christian” in the words recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But, in fact (if they would read the texts), these four “books” actually record Him teaching the Jews precisely what the 39 books of their Scriptures actually meant.
This is where many folks get confused about why He says, “Tear out your eye, if it offends.” and other strange remarks. He is teaching the enormous weight of the Torah, as it actually was intended to show the Jews (and all of mankind) are not holy.
After He is crucified, buried, raised, and ascended, other writers begin to take up the pen and write the explanation of all of this information to us Gentiles (non-Jews). The letters of Paul are primarily to Gentiles and explain how the good news applies to us and really what it means to live as a believing Christian. All these letters were finished by 90AD. They comprise the 27 so-called Books of the New Testament.
Notice, all of this thing we call the Bible was completed before the end of the first century. And, it testifies principally that the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah of Israel, was God on earth and the Rescuer of those chosen. All tolled there are about 150 writers of the 66 books (39 + 27) and all lead in this one direction.
Fast forward to the 7th cent. Here comes Mohammed. He is the ONLY author of the Koran. One man claiming to have the REAL story...Islam. He is held by Muslims as being a descendant of Ishmael, the other son of Abraham. He claims the Jews fabricated the whole “chosen people” thing and REWROTE the true story of the chosen people. He claims the Ishmaelites are the chosen people...hence the eternal friction between Jews and Muslims. Islam is a cult as much as other cults.
If you wish more info on the origin of all the texts and manuscripts, check The Origin of the Bible, FF Bruce, JI Packer, and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookbinding
“Western books from the fifth century onwards were bound between hard covers, with pages made from parchment folded and sewn on to strong cords or ligaments that were attached to wooden boards and covered with leather. Since early books were exclusively handwritten on handmade materials, sizes and styles varied considerably, and there was no standard of uniformity. Early and medieval codices were bound with flat spines, and it was not until the fifteenth century that books began to have the rounded spines associated with hardcovers today.[7] Because the vellum of early books would react to humidity by swelling, causing the book to take on a characteristic wedge shape, the wooden covers of medieval books were often secured with straps or clasps. These straps, along with metal bosses on the book’s covers to keep it raised off the surface that it rests on, are collectively known as furniture.”
Your error is in your understanding of what a "book" is, and supposing to be the "People of The Book" it must mean a book in the modern sense, versus a group of bound writings, which here are of Divine revelation = Scriptures.
I do not know what the word for "book" is on Aramaic, but in Hebrew when God told Moses
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven, (Exodus 17:14)
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, (Deuteronomy 31:24)
then the word is sêpher / siphrâh, which basically means a document. The Bible is actually a book of books, but to be the people of the book need only mean a people identified with certain holy writings, and could have applied to the Jews from the giving of the Law and onward, in the light of their identification with it:
And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the Lord. (2 Chronicles 34:30)
And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. (Nehemiah 8:3)
For the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. As is abundantly evidenced
And which testifies (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23, etc.) to writings of God being recognized and established as being so (essentially due to their unique and enduring heavenly qualities and attestation), and thus they materially provide for a canon of Scripture (as well as for reason, the church, etc.)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.